Press Conference: Ukrainian Prisoners of War and Civilian Detainees: Testimonies and Accountability

Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us. Earlier today, an aria formula meeting of the UN Security Council was held on the implementation of international humanitarian law with regards to prisoners of war, civilian detainees, and foreign fighters in the context of Russian aggression against Ukraine. The meeting was convened by Latvia and the United Kingdom and co-sponsored by Ukraine. It featured a briefing by UN Assistant Secretary General for Human Rights, Claudia Fuentes Julio, as well as firsthand testimonies and expert perspectives on the treatment of Ukrainian prisoners of war and civilian detainees in Russian captivity. We are pleased to have our briefers from Ukraine with us here today. They have traveled from Kyiv and bring both their personal experience and professional expertise directly to the United Nations and the international media. Before turning to them, however, I would like first to give the floor to Deputy Permanent Representative of Ukraine to the United Nations, Volodymyr Pavlychenko, for some introductory remarks.

Thank you, Andriy. Thank you, and good afternoon, and thank you for being here. We conducted this event to bring to the attention the situation with our prisoners of war. You are all aware that currently Ukraine is under the constant massive attacks of the missiles and drones, especially with the ballistic missiles. Our people are suffering in the temporarily occupied territories, but there is some issue that was not so much visible for international community, especially it's hidden deliberately from your views and attention is the conduct of Russian conduct in the Russian detainee centers. So our POWs here, one of the POW and one of the former civilian detainees here will share their personal stories. They will, we thank them for their courage to make it publicly and to deliver the voices to you. And also they will become the voices of thousands of Ukrainians who are currently in our, in the Russian captivity and cannot return back home. But even today, when we tried to arrange this ARIA formula meeting, what we've seen from the Russian Federation was simple. They were blaming others for all their mistakes and violations they are doing. They were looking for artificial reasons why they started this war and not even discussing the possibility of how to address the POWs return and to make the exchange all for all. But in this case, we are pleased that we've seen all the participation of UN members here. in the RF meeting, which was abundant presence there. They all delivered the messages that supported our POWs and the call for ceasefire, for ceasefire and the return of POWs back to their homes. And also, for the first time, you've seen that the Secretary General listed Russia in the list of the Russian army conducted the sexual violence abuses against POWs included. So in this case, I please welcome our briefers here who will be ready to answer your questions. And we hope that you will be able to disseminate this information and to deliver the message we want to deliver here. Thank you very much. Attention.

Merova, who is a Crimean Tatar activist and human rights defender. Ms. Merova was detained by Russian authorities in December 2022 and held for 21 months. 21 months in Russian detention before being released in September 2024. Lenia, thank you for being here and for sharing your experience with us. You have the floor.

Thank you for the floor. Thank you everyone for coming. Yeah.

Yeah.

Two year, one year and nine months in Russian prisons. Originally, I'm Crimean Tatar. It's Ukrainian indigenous nation. We live in Crimea. After Russia occupied Crimea, I moved to Kiev and I lived there almost all these years. But my closest ones still lived in Crimea. And in December 2022, I moved to visit my critically ill father to spend the time with him. because yes, the situation was critical. At the border control, when I tried to move to Crimea between Georgia and Russia, Russian security forces abducted me and put in Russian jail, spent there first time three months. Then they put me in another jail, another, another. First six months, I went through seven different jails. They did it just because they want to hide me from my closest ones, from attorney, et cetera, et cetera, to complicate my being there. I returned to Ukraine as a part of exchange in September 2022. It became possible of tremendous effort of coordinator, coordination headquarter, Ukrainian activists, government representatives, international institution, and everyone who speak about my story and it helped. And today I want to thank you that you are here and spoke about this because now we have almost more than 16,000 Ukrainian civilians in Russian prison. A lot of them in status in incommunicado status. We have no answers where they are. We know unofficial that they are in Russian prison, but we have no answers from Russian side that they're really kept this in this person in this jail. People who returned from this jail say that I saw this person there, but we have no the papers. So if you don't mind, I have time. I want to share a few stories of my friends with whom I met in Russian prisons. It's two women, one of Oksana from Kherson region. We met in Lefortovo prison. She's a she worked in kindergarten. She's a nanny. And Russian military forces kidnapped her from her house. She was tortured almost six months. She was in really bad condition. And after she kept in in the basement, literally, imagine, It's the place where the military forces kept civilians. No food, no water, no nothing. I mean, no regular food and no water. She was in really, really bad condition. One time they came. They came to her and said, we will kill you there and nobody even know where you are. After six months, they said that she is a spy and gave her 12 years of imprisonment. Second woman with whom I share, I want to share the story with you, her name is Yana, she's from the Paris region. When the full scale invasion begin, she tried to move her family, her children to. Dnepropetrovsk region. It's the safe place. But when she tried to return to the region to take care of her dogs and take clothes, Russian military forces stopped her and put her in the basement. She was beaten all the night. At the morning, they came to her and said that she must say it on the camera that she tried to do bad things. When we spoke with her in Lefortovo, at the road to the court, she said that, "Imagine, I even not remember what we talking about, what I talking about on the camera, because I feel so badly. My jaw was broken and my head was broken. Even a few teeth was knocked out." And I said, and when I came to the court and saw the video, I was so shocked that I said that I tried to kill somebody. So situation now in occupied territory with civilians is horrible. And I took a lot of time. Yes, I finished. Situation with civilians now is so horrible. Every day it's going to bad and bad. People kidnapped in the road, abducted to the road to occupied territory or when they are in occupied territories. In Crimea, people have a joke about 4 a.m., at the time when FESBA security forces come and kidnap people, come to searching something, bad things. And every time they can find what they want because they bring it with themselves. Yeah, I think I finished. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Niyah, for courage to share your testimony. Our next speaker is Juan Leyva Garcia. who is a serviceman of the Naval Forces of Ukraine and who has spent over three years in Russian captivity as prisoner of war. Juan, you have.

Okay, sorry. All right, greetings everyone. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your time and attention. My name is Juan Alberto Garcia. I'm an active serviceman within the Ukrainian military. And today, during the Security Council meeting, I was sharing my testimony of my experience being in Russian captivity, mainly saying the things that happened to me, but also about the things that I witnessed. And I was being more specific on Russians treating not only Ukrainian POWs, but their specific hatred own representatives of other nationalities. My main idea during this meeting, during the Security Council, was to bring out the narrative with which Russians are building their ideology of hatred, of which we thought that would not exist in 21st century. But it happened so that Russians to accumulate the hatred among their own ethnicities within their country, they're trying to point that hatred in the direction of other ethnicities. So I was sharing my experience in captivity, not when I was being treated poorly, not for only being Ukrainian, but also for being a half Cuban. It was very, very difficult for me specifically because Russians were outraged with whom I met at least, and were outraged to see someone with a connection to Cuba, of whom they perceive as an ally, to be fighting against their occupational army. And for me, it was already, it was difficult to be a Ukrainian marine in Russian captivity. I was targeted by them due to my military background, due to my participation in the Azovstal siege. But mostly it was always because of my Latino name and my Cuban background. And I've shared also stories of other people from other ethnicities and nationalities that were next to me in Russian captivity. During this council, I mentioned citizens of Belarus, Georgia, also citizens of Great Britain and Colombia who were in Russian captivity, treated poorly than others. Among those people, there were also Russian citizens who were abducted and suspected in any connections and or sympathies to Ukraine. These people, regardless that they were citizens of Russian Federation, they were treated the same way as POWs, meaning they had no rights. They were also held incommunicado. Their relatives did not know about their whereabouts. Those people were not giving any rights or attorneys or protection. So they were in the same almost non-existing inhumane conditions as us Ukrainians. And of course, they were also treated worse than us because they were perceived as traitors. Same happened to representative of Caucasus nationalities and representatives from the countries of the Central Asia. No one no one was protected in that captivity. And my entire thesis was that no passport, no citizenship can protect from being tortured, executed in Russian captivity. There's no immunity from verbal, physical, and sexual abuse in Russian captivity. I was addressing specifically many points and experience from my point, but during the Security Council, we also heard many, many controversial points. And on my experience, I wanted to comment on one of them specifically when during the Security Council, representative from China mentioned that the International Committee for the Red Cross has access to detainees from both sides. Well, that statement does not relate to truth at all because if I were to testify from my experience, I would strongly state that ICRC had no access to any POWs, including myself. We never heard of any monitoring missions conducted. We were never reached out to by any humanitarian mission or organization. In addition, all the letters that by the international humanitarian law can be granted to POWs and all the letters that can be delivered from the families and government through the ICRC almost never get delivered because Russian side, Russian correction facilities, they do not forward those letters from ICRC. And speaking on my experience, I can say, and that relates to many people who were with me, that my family, for three years and three months that I've been into Russian captivity, they've sent me more than 80 letters. They sent them through our governmental organization from the Human Rights Ombudsman Office and given them to the ICRC. Russian correction facilities never delivered those letters to me and they just held them for themselves, probably reporting to the ICRC that I received them. And that can be related to most of the POWs and detainees in Russian captivity. Well, I'm looking forward to answering your further questions. Thank you.

Pawan for sharing your experience with us. And we now turn to our last speaker who is Dr. Oleg Hushin, a Ukrainian lawyer who currently serves as a legal expert with the Ukraine's Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War. This is a governmental body coordinating the activities of state authorities related to compliance with the Geneva Convention. Dr. Hushin, you have the floor.

Thank you, Andrew. Yes, indeed. I'm Dr. Oleg Gushchin. I'm legal advisor and international relations officer for government organization, government institution called the Coordination Headquarters for POW Treatment. It was established right after the full scale invasion because of Ukraine is a part of the conflict, should and must act strictly accordance with the fourth and the third Geneva Convention. So Geneva Convention devoted to protection of civilians and treatment of POWs. Ukraine established a five POW camp, five POW camps. Once again, literally, according to the fourth Geneva Convention. We treat all the Russian POWs in these camps in strict accordance to the convention. They have, we granted access to the POWs, Russian POWs, to the all humanitarian institution like an ICRC, UN monitoring mission, OEC Moscow mechanisms, and any kind of those who want to see where they own, how it looks like to be in Ukrainian captivity. Because being in Ukrainian captivity means to be survived, to be alive. Otherwise, as I mentioned today, the Russian Federation didn't establish no POW camp, still it did not have any kind of intent to establish it in the future. Once again, 300 places of detention. All of these places are unofficial according to Geneva Convention, which means no any granted access to monitoring mechanisms, including ICRC. Because literally, no any mandatory mechanisms are present in the Russian Federation, except the ICRC, but the ICRC as well has no access to the places of detention within the Russian Federation and temporarily occupied territory of Ukraine. In this case, I wanted to show you a couple of short books. There's a couple of them Maybe I can see in the table on the back and I will share it with you. This call, once again, the Geneva Convention described how to treat the POWs, how to treat them humanely. But the Russian Federation, it seems they never open them, never open them. So we created our understanding, so means the Russian understanding how to treat POWs. in their captivity and call it Geneva no Moscow convention so this short book describes in a very short manner that a condition that face our colleagues our our our speakers today and you will have an QR code on the back to have an access to this book we are the upside I will leave it And please, let's take it, share it with your colleagues, with your societies, your governments, to be clear, understand what does it mean to be within Russian captivity. So the couple of numbers of the level of and the scale, we conducted 76 exchanges during the exchange process. and released more than 9.5 thousand Ukrainians from Russian captivity. We're talking about the living one, those who survived in Russian captivity. Moreover, we returned back more than 25,000 bodies, both from Russian captivity and the front line. But the most terrifying things that more than 150, those who we personally know that they lived, they trying to survive in Russian places of detention, returning back to Ukraine as bodies. It means that they tortured to death in Russian captivity and just they were returned to Ukraine. In generally, we counted more than 400, more precisely, 433 bodies from the Russian captivity. They were returned like bodies. What does it mean in reality? The difference between Ukraine and Russia, so we involved in a one armed conflict. The difference between Ukraine and Russia means even When the Ukrainians faced 100 of thousand war crimes against Ukrainians by the Russian armed forces, we treat them literally according to the Geneva Convention, literally word by word. And it confirmed by hundreds of monitoring mechanisms, monitoring visits to Ukraine, to Ukrainian detention facility. For those of you who wanted to be personally by your own when you will have an opportunity to visit Ukraine you will free to visit any kind of POW can by your own and to see how you create how Ukraine treat Russian POWs by your own once again you can speak with them absolutely freely but the difference is the Russian Russian captivity means to be closer to death. To be closer to death. Our speakers today are so lucky because they survived. You listen to him, you listen to her, listen to them, you're watching them, but you never saw them on the first days when they came back from Russian captivity. So, This is the main point that you should understand, ladies and gentlemen. To become a Ukrainian prisoner of war or to become a civilian detainee within Russia very often means to be tortured to death. I'm free to answer your question. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Oleh. And we will now open the floor for your questions. And as a tradition has it, the first question will go to United Nations Correspondents Association, please.

Thank you very much on behalf of the United Nations Correspondents Association. My name is Edith Lederer from the Associated Press. I have a couple of follow-up questions. First, For those of us who were unable to watch the area formula meeting, was Russia there? Did they speak? And what basically was their reaction? Secondly, for both, and I'm sorry if I don't pronounce your names right, but Juan and Lenny, were both of you tortured and how badly. And the assistant secretary general for human rights did speak at the area formula meeting. And while she was exceedingly critical of the Russians treatment of Ukrainians, She also criticized the treatment of Russian prisoners of war and detainees, especially in the early moments or the early times of their capture, although she said this was all be all, be it not on the same scale. I wonder if you could address that. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for your question. And would any of the speakers would like to address this?

I'll start as like as possibly I said in my opening remarks, yes, the Russian Federation was present during the Aria Formula meeting. And the thing they said was always the same narrative as it was repeated during the all the Security Council meetings. The reasons of the war, which they made in artificial way. And the thing is that they were trying to blame the partners, our partners for helping us to self defend, which we actually do under the Article 51. And the thing is that the one thing that struck me most was that they were not ready to discuss the return of POWs, including their POWs. We thought that this area formal meeting will be a platform for us to show what is done. to allow the access for the ICRC and other monitoring missions to enter the centers and to discuss the exchange of all for all, but it didn't happen. So we were criticized for this, but we are here to find a way how we can unite all the UN mechanisms and tools that we have here and to use them to return our people back home to their families, including children who are still there, who are still abducted. Thank you. For the next questions, I hope our briefers will be able to answer.

Thank you for your question. It's not easy, but I try to understand you. Actually, I think I'm a really lucky person because at the first day when Russians put me in the prison, It's actually first hours. I find the person and she was the person who worked in the kitchen and she was civilian. And I find a way to call and find the lawyer. And it's really helped me. But Almost every time of my imprisonment, I spent in, most of the time, I spent in one cell, one person cell. I actually, I don't know how to explain. It's complicated in the, I was not so tortured like a lot of people was because I have a lawyer who every time tried to find me in other prisons. I said before that I spent every prison in northern city before I moved to Moscow. And Every two months, I moved another and other places. They moved me, actually, not that I want to move. But they tried to do-- they don't-- I wasn't beaten, but they trying to do to make my life so complicated as it possible to not give me like-- Brises. Brises, without brises. So yes. And for me, actually, I think how I can survive that what they did, it's so horrible and so crazy and even ridiculous sometimes. that my closest ones tried to speak about my story with journalists, with human rights defenders. And it's really helped because people start to speak about me in the whole world. And then people send me the letters. They tell me that you're not alone. we believe that you go through all of this and one day you return back. And it's really helped because after one year and nine months of my imprisonment, I returned back with part of the exchange. And I'm sure that the international society starts speak about my story, it's really helped. And today you are here and I ask you to speak about our civilians and prisoners of war because it's really help. And we are with Juan. It's yes, like example that when people speak about what's happened in Russian captivities and prisons, people can return back from this place. Thank you.

Adding a little bit on your question about tortures, this is why we're here for. We're here to testify. And so you can hear from the first hand about the experience of people in Russian captivity. Speaking about tortures, yes, people like me, I was tortured. If you were to ask at what scale, at all scales possible, at maximum. If you were to ask specifics, anything you can think of that can be done, hurtful, humiliating to a man, unwillingly, anything that comes to your mind. Not only verbal, physical abuse, daily beatings, electrocution, excessive exercises on the freezing cold when it's minus degree, minus 30 degree. sexual abuse, everything that can be applied to a person into making a person break mentally. It was all applied to me and most of my comrades. I was lucky enough to survive. Not many of my friends were lucky enough. Two of my friends were beaten up to death in detention centers in the Donetsk region. Two of my friends died because of the conditions they were put in in Russian prisons and were returned in plastic bags to their homeland. So Answering your question, yes, I was tortured as many of POWs that are in Russian captivities.

Well, I'm following Juan and to generalize, there is a Istanbul Protocol, UN Istanbul Protocol devoted to and define all types of torture that mankind invented, how to say, and mostly devoted to forensic officers. who just examine the body and understand what type of torture was delivered to the particular person. Any type of torture which defined in Istanbul Protocol we faced in Russian captivity, any kind. So all the tortures that mankind invented in the whole history and described in Istanbul Protocol we faced, we saw it. And in response to your remark about dealing with treatment of Russian POWs in Ukraine, the main difference between Russia and Ukraine is Ukraine never hide a problem. So that's why you saw it, you heard. If a monitoring mechanism understood and understand that there is a problem with the Russian POW within Ukraine, they ask in a government and realize that this criminal prosecution, criminal investigations already started. So, we open any kind of report of UN monitoring mission in Ukraine and you will find, okay, this is a problem with the Russian POWs in Ukraine. But the next line will be the Ukrainian government, Ukrainian prosecution system started a criminal investigation. That's the main point, that's the main difference between Russia and Ukraine. Are we idealistic? No. Are we ideal country? Maybe no. But we do not hide it. We react. We try to find the problem. We're trying to not to hide the problem and we try to bring to responsibility all people, including our servicemen, if they committed a crime.

Thank you very much. And before asking the question, please identify your organization and let us know which of the speakers you would like to address. I see a gentleman over there.

Thank you so much. This is Namo Abdullah with Rudaw Media Network. I have two questions for Ambassador Pavlyuchenko and Mr. Kushchin. I'm sorry if I mispronounce your names. Iraqi -- an Iraqi court last year sentenced a man to prison for trafficking Iraqis to fight for Russia. I just want to know how many, and I think some of them were held in Ukraine as prisoners of war, how many Iraqis are you holding in Ukraine? And do you treat them as POWs or victims of human trafficking? And have Iraqi authorities been in touch with you about the fate of these people, what to do about them? Thank you so much.

Thank you for your question. Firstly, that you should understand here is a very sensitive question, so do not expect that I will explain all the things, but I will try to do my best as much as I can as a government official. Yes, there is Iraqi servicemen, Iraqi fighters within the Russian armed forces. Yes, we captured some of them. We treat all of them as POWs. No one considered like a mercenary. All of Iraqis nationality nationals who are captured by Ukrainian armed forces, we treat them as POWs, prisoners of war. Yes, there is a problem devoted to should we treat them like persons who suffered from human trafficking. According to IHL, the IHL is a lex specialis during the war, where it means that firstly, we should grant them the status of POWs, and only after that to understand are they victims of trafficking, human trafficking or not. But firstly, this is according to Geneva Convention, we granted all of them a status of POWs. The next question devoted to do they have access of Iraqi officials? Yes, they have. The only one thing that I cannot tell you precisely that is number of Iraqi citizens who are within the Iraq captivity because of security measures and because of the relation between two countries. But yes, once again, we have.

A gentleman there, please.

Hello, my name is Gabriel Zando from Al Jazeera English. Thank you very much for the briefing. I have a question for Oleg and then Lenny and then Juan. I'll ask them as succinctly as possible. Oleg, a follow up to that last question. Can you tell us how many other foreign nationals that Ukraine has in POW camps? Maybe not the exact number unless you can, but at least how many nationalities. And then my question for Juan is what struck me about your testimony is your background, as you talked about having a background from Cuba and Cuba, as you well know, is an ally of the Russian Federation. As much as you feel comfortable sharing, will you share any more details about your background? whatever you feel comfortable sharing here. And I can imagine that you talked about it briefly, but I can imagine that that is a somewhat unique position for someone of the Ukrainian armed forces with a Cuban background to be held prisoner of war. How did that specifically affect your treatment? And Lenny, my last one for you is, Can you explain? You said you had access to a lawyer, but I think if I understood you correctly, it was you were able to get it through a phone call or something like that. Right. Can you just in all of your time being held captive, explain roughly how many other Ukrainian POWs had an access to a lawyer like you did? Thank you.

Responding to your question, sir. Maybe I cannot tell you the exact number, but to understand the scale, the level of involvement of foreigners to Russian armed forces, there is a couple of, a few numbers. The first one, we are now holding foreigners more than from 50 countries of the world. within Ukrainian captivity. To be precise, 51. All these foreigners are holding in one POW camp. To be more comfortable, is it possible to say comfortable, to visit them of representative of all embassies. So they collected in one POW camp. And once again, those who wanted to see them personally, of course, with their consent, you can visit it absolutely freely. Go to Ukraine if you don't fear the air and the bombing. And we will grant it, we will grant it all of you, an access, a free access to visit them personally, to see you in their eyes, to have a conversation with them vis-a-vis. And to understand the level of involvement, another number. Foreigners from 135 countries of the world are involved like fighters within Russian armed forces. So this is to understand the scale of involvement. Again, we established a POW camp. and the one POW camp devoted especially for POWs from third countries, is it to you to understand the level of involvement?

Yeah, well, thank you for your question. Well, answering briefly, of course, as I said during the meeting, the area meeting earlier today and in my first statement here, My story is one of the unique stories. And people have heard around the world about the experience of foreigners who are fighting for Ukraine, who were treated roughly and were filmed by Russian propaganda. And not actually many of them made it home alive. So few people were killed, and a lot of people still remain in Russian captivity. We're talking about citizens of Georgia and Belarus. And my story is unique because I had to put effort into proving that I'm not a foreigner, that I'm actually Ukrainian citizen born in Ukraine. And specifically, it was hatred because of my Cuban background and the whole story about Cuba being allied to Russia. One of the examples I will provide you, something that I withhold it from stating in the council because it seemed to be a very sensitive story. But upon my arrival to the detention center number two in the city of Tahan Rock, which was very famous for its system of tortures towards POWs, I was already standing out from the crowd that arrived there and I was already targeted by them. So you can imagine a person being moved around in a space without touching the ground because the beatings that were applying to me were so heavy and intense that they actually, I never managed to lay down on the ground and I was already all the time in the air, if you can imagine that. And for like many hours, I was being beaten up nonstop by many prison guards. And the same day I was escorted for a private interrogation just because of my name. So Russian prison administration did not believe that I was not a foreigner and they were trying to interrogate me, applying tortures to me. So at some point they forced me to take one of my prison shoes and socks off and put my leg, my foot in the plastic bag with the water in it. And they put electrical wire in it. And they kept making me into admitting that I'm a mercenary, a foreigner, a Cuban foreigner, Cuban mercenary fighting for Ukraine. And since I did not admit to that, and I refused to admit that, they plugged the cord in and electrocuted me through the water. And they kept beating me. every like every second while doing that. I had many other experience, but specifically like this because of my name, because of my background, every day was followed with heavy beatings during security checks and I was beaten up more than other POWs just because I had a Spanish name. So I hope that fully answers your question.

Thank for your question. This question is really important. I try to understand what's happened with lawyers. You only one thing you said about prisoners of war. I'm not sure that I'm competent to tell about prisoners of war. I think Juan and Olaf can do it. I speak only about civilian prisoners. About my lawyer. First time, first bad, don't tell prison who I am, that I'm political actually, and I sit like regular prisoner. And it's really important to understand that you find a lawyer really quickly. This lawyer started working with FESBA. Actually, in my case, it was the same situation because first time she tried to find me, tried to do something, actually after three months of my imprisonment, she even find the way in a cassation court how to take me off from this prison. But when I move out from this prison, the back over my head, few four men in balaclava. How it's in English? Face mask. Yeah. White car, strange music, no answer or even one question what I ask of them. Next day, new prison. And after this situation, the person move to one really understandable start working with FSB and she start said me told me that I must take Russian passport and if I take Russian passport everything will be okay and I can't move out from this prison about this situation in general with civilians, a lot of them first time, first few months, two till six months in communicated status. Nobody don't know where they are. And at the start of my speech, I told that I'm a lucky person because all my journey, my closest ones knew that I'm in prison, imprisonment. But I share today the story of Hatidze Abuyukjan. She's 25 years old woman from Crimea. She was abducted and in the road to home, FSB kidnapped her. and she spent three or four months in communicative status. Nobody knows where she is. After that time, her parents start speaking about her story, that nobody knows where their daughter And after that, Fezbe said that she is in detention center. After that, when we know that person in detention center or etcetera, etcetera, at prison, they can have, a lot of them can have a lawyer, but 80-90% that this lawyer will do everything what FSB want. We have huge problem with lawyers in Russia because in a lot of situation it can make situation worse than better. Thank you.

Thank you very much, colleagues. We have to wrap up in five minutes, so one last quick question. Thank you.

Thank you very much. My name is Muna Awchoul with Al-Quds Al-Arabi. My question is for Lenny. First of all, thank you very much for having the courage to share your experience, and I'm so sorry if this is overwhelming for you. But you spoke about being moved through different, I think seven different prisons during your detention. and about different forms of abuse. So based on these very difficult and painful experiences, what kind of psychological support you think survivors need after going through this kind of trauma? And beyond sharing and amplifying the stories of the civilian detainees, What would you like the UN and the international community to do? What is your message for them? And thank you again.

Thank you for the question. First of all, we need to return all our people. If we can do this, we must help them to be in situation when we can live, not die, because we have a lot of even civilians who now in Russian prison, like Victoria Roshina, it's Ukrainian journalist who died in Russian captivity. She died in the prison, which Juan told in, help me, what's the name of this prison?

It's detention center number three in the city of Kizel.

Yeah, after that, after people return from, and of course, if they return from the captivity, from detention centers, first time they need to rehabilitation. psychological and physical. It's very important because in my situation it was sensor deprivation. It was so complicated. Voices too loud, too loud colors, it's too bright and et cetera, et cetera. And first time you need to return to normal life, to need check out everything what's happened with your body because we have the example the one man civilian from her son region returned to one of the exchanges in the start of the summer to Ukraine and medicals find cancer in his body a lot of Very bad situation because a lot of people in Russian prisons have no medicine, no any medicine. And yes, when they return, they find so many problems with their body. And in this case, the man was died few days ago. So next one. It's very important after you return to normal life, you made all this thing with your body and with your head. You feel that you need to, you want to justice that the man who did with you take responsible responsibility for they did with you. It's very important. And my message today was that it's not, you know, in international society, it's very huge message that only Putin do bad things. No, they have a lot of people, a lot of people, a lot of names who did every bad things with Ukrainians. They're tortured him, abducted them. etcetera, etcetera. There's sand missiles under our heads in Ukraine because, sorry, I just came from Kiev a few days ago and I must tell you, sorry. So everything do the people and justice must be. This is my key message today for UN. Must be, yeah, thank you.

Thank you very much, dear colleagues, for being here today once again. And thank you to all the speakers, especially Juan and Linnea, for bringing their firsthand experience here to the United Nations. We hope that this discussion will not end with today's ARIA Formula meeting and with our meeting with you. and will contribute to further efforts to protect prisoners of war and civilian detainees, to secure international access to them, facilitate exchanges, and ensure accountability for the violators. Thank you again.