15th UN Crime Congress: Special high-level event – 26 September 2026

Good afternoon, everybody. Glen Puchard is my name. I'm the Chief of the Cybercrime and Technology Section at the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime. Thank you very much for joining this event here with us today. We are going to start the event with some remarks from some dignitaries that we've asked to come along and make some remarks in relation to the UN Convention against Cybercrime, and then we'll go into a panel discussion. This whole session is about the journey that we're on in relation to operationalising the convention, and so you'll hear a lot about that over the next hour. So first of all, I would invite the high-level speakers, if they could come forward and take a position on the podium, please, and we will then commence. So, excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, welcome here today to this event. As I said, it's an important milestone in relation to our journey towards operationalizing the Convention, and we have the opportunity to hear from some very distinguished representatives. And we're very happy to have, actually, we have three state parties of the UN Convention against Cybercrime already. And we're very lucky to have representatives from each of those three countries here today that will speak about why they have actually taken this bold step and the journey that they hope to go on in relation to it. So without anything further to do, I'd like to invite our first speaker to the podium, Mr. Le Anh Tuan, the Deputy Foreign Minister of Vietnam. The floor is yours, sir.

Good afternoon, Ms. Briggs, Mr. Boshaw, representatives of UNODC, Excellency, Heads of Delegation, distinguished delegates. It's a great pleasure to be here today, and particularly to see UN's many friends and colleagues with us in Hanoi almost a year ago to witness the historic opening for signature of the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime, the Hanoi Convention. Our gathering today, therefore, carries special significance from Hanoi to Abu Dhabi. We are continuing together the journey of translating the commitments embody in the convention into concrete action. Excellency, distinguished delegates, almost a year ago, the successful signing ceremony in Hanoi marked an important milestone in our collective efforts. Vietnam has always believed that the success of the convention should be measured not only by the number of signatures it received, but more importantly, by its early entry into force and its effective implementation in practice. Guided by this conviction, Vietnam moved swiftly to ratify the Convention and is actively reviewing and strengthening its domestic legal framework and putting in place the necessary conditions for its effective implementation. Last week in New York, Vietnam and UNODC signed a letter of intent on the establishment of an UNODC ASEAN Pacific Regional Cybercrime Hub in Vietnam. This initiative is one of the concrete steps we are taking to deliver on that commitment. We hope that the hub will contribute to capacity building experience sharing and stronger cooperation, but particularly by supporting developing countries in their efforts to ratify and implement the Convention. On this occasion, I wish to express our appreciation to UNODC, particularly its Regional Office for Southeast Asia and the Pacific, for working closely closely with Vietnam in developing and advancing this initiative. Excellency, distinguished delegates, the theme of our discussion today raised a very practical question. Following the successful signing ceremony, what must we do to bring the Hanoi Convention fully to life? First, We need to sustain the political momentum generated in Hanoi. Vietnam calls upon states to sign the Convention as the earliest opportunity and to accelerate the processes of ratification, acceptance, approval so that the Convention can enter in force at an early date and become a truly global framework for cooperation. Second, ratification must go hand in hand with effective implementation. The Convention established a comprehensive framework encompassing criminalization, procedural measures, electronic evidence, international cooperation, technical assistance and capacity building. Translating these provisions into national law and practice will entail different requirements and challenges for different countries, particularly developing countries. Against this backdrop, we encourage UNODC to continue playing a central role in supporting states in their preparation for ratification and implementation of the Convention. An immediate priority should be the timely development of a high-quality, practical and user-friendly legislative guide to assist States in understanding the requirements of the Convention, reviewing their domestic legislation, identifying legislative gaps and determining appropriate approaches to implementation in accordance with their respective legal systems. At the same time, technical assistance and capacity building should be tailored to the actual needs and circumstances of island developing countries, with due emphasis on the respective role of governments, international and regional organizations, and other relevant stakeholders. Excellency, distinguished delegates, the journey from signature to implementation of Hanoi Convention has only just begun. Vietnam remains committed to working closely with the United Nations, UNODC and all Member States along this journey, so that the Hanoi Convention can enter into force at an early date, be effectively implemented and become a truly effective instrument of international cooperation in our common fight against cybercrime. Thank you.

Thank you for those kind words. Our task is a very daunting task to bring into force in the quickest way possible the Cybercrime Convention. And when we have great partners like Vietnam, it takes a lot of effort away from us and it gives us a lot of support. They've been very, very strong supporters along the journey so far and we really thank you for all of that support. Without anything further to do, I'd ask Ms. Brigida Strobel-Shaw, our Director and Ad Interim of Division for Treaty Affairs from the UNODC to come forward and make some remarks. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Glenn. Your Excellency, Lee Antoine, Excellencies, distinguished delegates, dear participants, it's my pleasure to welcome you to this special high-level event. Today, as we focus on the path from signature to implementation of the UN Convention against Corruption, it is worth reflecting on the journey that brought us here. For over two decades, the UN Crime Congress has recognized the growing challenge posed by the criminal use of digital technologies. In Vienna in 2000, member states committed themselves to strengthening their capacity to prevent and combat what was then called computer-related crime. A decade later, in 2010, in Salvador de Bahia in Brazil, that concern had grown into a broader question, whether the international community might one day require a dedicated, legally binding global instrument of its own. Each Congress carried the conversation a little further. Meanwhile, the threat landscape continued to evolve rapidly. Cybercrime became more sophisticated, more transnational, and more damaging in its impact. We see examples of ransomware disrupting critical services, large-scale online fraud, causing immense financial losses, and online sexual abuse and non-consensual sharing of intimate images, inflicting profound harm on victims around the world. At the same time, terrorist groups and transnational organized criminal networks increasingly exploit digital technologies to facilitate, expand, and conceal their activities. That is why the adoption of this convention by the General Assembly in December 2024 and its opening for signature in Hanoi in October 2025 was such a historic achievement. It is the international community's shared response to a challenge that has been with us for a long time, that is global by its very nature, and that no country can hope to meet alone. The convention is the product of a remarkable collaborative effort involving 155 member states from every region and every legal tradition, supported by the expertise of international organizations, civil society, academia, and the private sector. What emerged is a framework shaped by all and meant for all. The convention is the first globally negotiated, legally binding instrument of its kind, open to all states. It complements existing regional and international frameworks rather than replacing them, and it establishes a global basis for sharing electronic evidence, not only for cybercrime, but for all serious crimes that leave digital traces. It is technology neutral by design, enabling it to remain relevant as technology continues to evolve. And it brings together the essential elements of an effective criminal justice response, from harmonized criminal laws and specialized investigative powers to international cooperation, the recovery of criminal proceeds, prevention and technical assistance, all underpinned by safeguards for human rights and fundamental freedoms. Adoption and signature were milestones, but they were never the destination. The real work begins now. 40 ratifications will bring the Convention into force and allow States Parties to draw fully on its mechanisms for cooperation, capacity building and the exchange of electronic evidence. UNODC stands ready to support States throughout that process. Drawing on more than a decade of experience through our global program on cybercrime and our growing network of regional expertise, combined with over 20 years of support to other criminal justice treaties, we're committed to assisting countries in advancing effective implementation. I look forward to today's discussion and to continued cooperation as we move from signature to implementation. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Brigada. I would now ask His Excellency, Mr. Yassim Yaqoub Al Hammadi, the Ambassador for the State of Qatar to Vienna, to come forward to make some opening remarks.

Excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, It's my pleasure to participate in this important high-level event, which provides an opportunity to raise awareness among member states and public opinion about the importance of the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime and the need for its entry into force and effective implementation. I would like to begin by renewing our appreciation to the people and government of Vietnam for hosting the signing ceremony of the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime, a historic milestone in international effort to combat the growing threats posed by cybercrime. I would like also to thank the UNODC for organizing this important meeting. Cybercrime is expanding rapidly and knows no borders. It affects all societies and harms citizens worldwide. It disrupts essential services, discourages investment, undermines economic confidence, damages critical infrastructure, erodes trust in the digital economy. violates privacy, and facilitates identity theft and online fraud, among other harmful consequences. Fortunately, the international community now has a shared framework to address these global challenges. The Cybercrime Convention is a comprehensive global treaty That helps close legal gaps and ensure criminal can be effectively investigated and brought to justice across jurisdiction. The convention criminals 11 forms of cyber crime and establish common standards for investigating crime committed in information and communication technology environment as well as collecting and acquiring and preserving electronic data. It also provides states with important tools for international cooperation. It also provides for additional one or more protocols to address the changing dynamic of this consistently evolving crime. My country is proud to be the first state to ratify convention I take this opportunity to call on other states to ratify and its help bringing into force as soon as possible. As the saying goes, do not curse the darkness, light a candle. It's therefore not enough to complain about the harm the cyber crime causes to our societies and economics. Instead, we must take concrete steps to strengthen international cooperation and build our collective capacity to prevent and combat this growing threat. Even before the convention was finalized and adopted by the General Assembly, the State of Qatar anticipated the growing risk posed by cybercrime and signed an agreement with the UNODC to establish the Doha Regional Center for Combating Cybercrime. One of the center's main objectives is to provide training to officials from countries in the region and beyond on the prevention and investigation of cybercrime. The center also has developed a training program to familiarize specialists with the Cybercrime Convention and with the ways to make effective use of its provides and produce to combat cybercrime in their respective countries, while strengthening cooperation among states. In conclusion, the international community fights against organized crime in all its forms. is ongoing and ever-evolving struggle. We can only prevail by uniting our effort and placing our shared responsibilities and common interest above all considerations. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ambassador. I mentioned about Vietnam's great support. It would be remiss of me to not acknowledge the great support of Qatar. in relation to cybercrime and the UNODC. The center that we have there is really a centerpiece of our work in relation to our technical assistance, and we look forward to a long-running partnership with them. I now ask Mr. Hasan Mansurov, the Deputy Head of the State Security Service from Azerbaijan. He's the third member of this small club where we have three state members, and we hope to have a much bigger club very soon. So over to you, sir.

Mr. Moderator, Excellencies, Distinguished Delegates, On behalf of the Republic of Azerbaijan, we thank the UNODC for organizing this event and the United Arab Emirates for hosting this Congress. We wish to note that the title of this meeting is well chosen, "From Signature to Implementation: A signature is an intention. A ratification is a commitment. And implementation is a result. Azerbaijan has today completed the second stage, ratification. Last October in Hanoi, the world obtained its first global treaty against cybercrime. But because the required number of ratification hasn't been yet reached, The Convention hasn't yet begun to serve the resolution of the global problems it was designed to address. On this subject, we should look first to the conclusions drawn from practice. Electronic evidence is short-lived. Logs are deleted. Servers are updated. Accounts are closed, sometimes days, sometimes hours, make all the difference. Establishing the rules and the mechanisms from formal cooperation between states, however, takes months. For this reason, the pace of ratification isn't a legal formality. It determines the outcome of ongoing investigations. And behind that outcome stand real people, children, families, businesses, state institutions. For the victims of the cybercrime, delay is not an abstract concept. That Azerbaijan is among the first states to ratify the Convention reflects the value of country places on the institutions of international law and the readiness of our national legal mechanisms. This process gave us several lessons that we are able to share with delegations now at the preparatory stage. First, it's essential to begin the legal review from day one. The chapters and articles of the Convention must be compared line by line against national legislation. the Criminal Code, the Code of Criminal Procedure, the rules of electronic evidence. It is sufficient to entrust this review to the same team that took part in the negotiations. The technical work may take considerably longer than the expression of political will. It is therefore advisable to conduct these processes in parallel rather than in sequence. Second, determine who will carry out the standing work under the Convention. The Convention requires a central authority for mutual legal assistance, as well as contact points available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. These must be designed, staffed and trained before the first request arrives, not after. Further, the declarations and reservations should be prepared in advance. As is known, Azerbaijan submitted a number of declarations and reservations upon ratification. For example, Azerbaijan has accepted the Convention as a legal basis for extradition with other State parties without requiring a separate bilateral treaty. At the same time, it has limited criminal liability for illegal access interference with data and misuse by devices, by the criteria of infringements of security measures, dishonest intent and serious harm. And finally, powers and safeguards must be built as a single package. Convention gives investigators strong tools. At the same time, Article 24 requires conditions and safeguards. proportionality, judicial and other independent review, the right to an efficient remedy, grounds justifying application, and the limitation of the scope and duration. Practical considerations require that both be done at the same time. No one sends evidence to a system without safeguards. Here, trust is an operational resource. The adoption of the necessary legislative amendments is among the processes that can begin without waiting for ratification. The same applies to training and joint investigations. Allow me to draw attention to the point: once the Convention enters into force, the Conference of the States Parties will begin its work. of procedure, its working methods, its priorities and the manner in which implementation will be assessed will all be determined there. Those rules have not yet been agreed. The states that ratify in good time will adopt them. Those who join later will read the text already agreed. Early ratification isn't only a matter of solidarity, it's an opportunity to take part. We call upon UNODC and our partners to continue technical assistance to states of the ratification stage. Azerbaijan stands ready at all times to share its experience concerning ratification, declarations and reservations, the alignment of national legislation and all related matters, and to hold regional practical workshops together with UNODC. We traveled this road recently, and we still remember the questions. Excellencies, today the world has a treaty against cybercrime, but it has no legal force. Changing that depends on the will of the states that will complete ratification. Each passing day makes it clearer that cybercrime knows no borders. more must our joint response. Thank you.

Thank you very much for your leadership in early ratification of the Convention and sharing those experiences with us here today. As I said earlier, we hope that there's many more to follow very shortly and that we will have a conference of the State Parties in the near future. I'd like to also welcome Judge Mohamed Youssef, the Assistant Minister of Justice for International Cooperation from Egypt. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Moderator, distinguished delegates and colleagues, allow me to begin by thanking the United Arab Emirates for the outstanding organization of this 15th UN Crime Congress and for having the opportunity to contribute to this timely discussion and sharing insights on the implementation trajectory of the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime. From signature to ratification and ultimately to effective enforcement, the adoption of the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime by the United Nations General Assembly on the 24th of December 2024 marked a historic milestone for international criminal justice. It is the first universal, legally binding instrument dedicated to combating cybercrime and strengthening international cooperation in obtaining electronic evidence. Today, our challenge is no longer negotiating the convention. Our challenge is ensuring that treaty commitments are translated into practical realities. Egypt's commitment to this Convention predates its adoption. Since negotiations commenced in 2021, Egyptian experts from our Ministries of Justice, Foreign Affairs, Interior, and Communications, alongside representatives of the Public Prosecution, participated actively in shaping this landmark instrument. This engagement reflects our conviction that cybercrime, by its very nature, demands a collective response. No state, however advanced in its capabilities, can confront this challenge in isolation. On October 2025, Egypt proudly joined the community of nations in signing this convention. The signature represented more than a formality. It embodied Egypt firm belief that the rule of law must extend into the digital sphere with the same rigor we apply to the physical world. Cybercrime has evolved beyond a purely technical issue. It has become a direct threat to economic security, national security, public administration, critical infrastructure, and the daily lives of our citizens. Criminal groups exploit information and communication technologies to commit fraud, extortion, money laundering, trafficking offenses, and attacks against essential infrastructure. This is what makes cybercrime particularly challenging in its transnational nature. The offender may be in one jurisdiction, the victim in another, the electronic evidence in a third, and the proceeds of crime is yet another. Therefore, no state can successfully confront cybercrime alone. The Convention rightly acknowledges that effective responses require harmonized criminalization, rapid cooperation, and reliable mechanisms for obtaining electronic evidence across borders. Why ratification matters? Signature represents political commitment, while ratification creates legal commitment. The Convention can fulfill its promise only if states move beyond endorsement and proceed to ratification, accompanied by meaningful domestic implementation. Ratification provides legal certainty. It strengthens mutual legal assistance. It supports capacity building. It reduces jurisdictional gaps exploited by cybercriminals. And ultimately, it enhances protection for citizens, businesses and institutions. From a penal law perspective, ratification is not merely a procedural step. It requires careful legislative review and adaptation. States must ensure that criminalization remains fully consistent with the fundamental principles of criminal justice, including legality, legal certainty, proportionality, due process, and judicial oversight. The challenge is clear. The question is, how do you create laws that are sufficiently flexible to address rapidly evolving technologies while remaining sufficiently precise to uphold the rule of law. One of the strengths of the Convention is its recognition that security and human rights are not contradictory objectives. Rather, they are mutually reinforcing. Effective cybercrime legislation must be accompanied by safeguards that protect privacy, ensure judicial supervision, and uphold fair trial guarantees. The legitimacy of cybercrime enforcement depends not only on effectiveness, but also on public trust. Ratification alone is not enough. Implementation requires institutions. It requires expertise. It requires resources. States should invest in specialized investigators, specialized prosecutors, trained judges, and advanced digital forensic capabilities. Partnerships with the private sector are equally important, and international cooperation remains indispensable. In an interconnected digital world, capacity building in one country strengthens security for all countries. What is the Egyptian perspective? Egypt is now preparing for ratification, examining our domestic legislation, with the same rigor with which we approached the negotiations. We understand that ratification requires careful legislative review to ensure that criminalization provisions are consistent with the fundamental principles of criminal justice, legality, legal certainty, proportionality, due process, and fair trial. We also recognize that effective implementation demands sustained investment. institutions, expertise and resources. Egypt is committed to this path. And we stand ready to work with all partners to translate this convention promise into practical realities. To conclude, the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime represents a historic achievement of multilateral cooperation. But its true measure of success will not be the number of signatures, nor even the number of ratifications. The true measure of success will be our collective ability to translate this convention into stronger investigations, more effective cooperation, greater accountability, and better protection for victims. As we move from signature to ratification, and from ratification to implementation, let us ensure that this convention becomes a practical instrument for justice, for security, and for international cooperation. Egypt stands ready to do its part. Thank you for attention. Thank you.

We also have one further statement, and that is from our host, from the UAE. His Excellency Dr. Mohammed Al Qowaiti, the head of the UAE Cybersecurity Council from the UAE, has left this video message with us.

Hello, everybody. The 15th Crime Congress meets in Abu Dhabi at the moment. The international community has worked towards for years. In fact, in Hanoi last October, 72 states and the European Union signed the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime on a single day. It is the first global and comprehensive treaty on cybercrime. Our thanks go to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime for convening this event. It is very important to realize that cybercrime moves across borders in seconds. Evidence, jurisdictions and response still move at the pace of national procedure. The Convention exists to close that distance. through a common legal framework, shared procedural tools, and a permanent network for cooperation. Its value will be measured by how quickly it enters into force and how fully it is applied. Entry into this force requires ratification, and signature remains open until the end of this year. The scale of the challenge is measured in our national systems every day. In fact, and since February, our country digital infrastructure has faced so many attacks that varies between 600,000 and 800,000 attacks per day. Our national capabilities have detected and neutralized all of those attacks while services continue to run normally for citizens and residents. Behind those attempts stand organized fraud, ransomware, and phishing generated with artificial intelligence, reaching people and their personal devices so that cybercrime is not a matter of the government only, it's a matter of the public opinion as well. Certain priorities matter most in the period immediately after signature. Legal and institutional readiness comes first. National frameworks must align with the Convention while upholding due process. human rights and the rule of law. Operational cooperation follows. Investigations depend on trusted channels and the lawful exchange of electronic evidence at the speed of the threat. Capacity building underpins both. No state should be left behind for lack of expertise, technology or resources. We are all in this together. In the United Arab Emirates, cybersecurity protects opportunity as much as it protects systems. Our national cybersecurity strategy, in fact, brings policy, technology, law enforcement, and public awareness into one national framework, with cyber diplomacy among its stated goals as well. That approach is reflected in the Global Cybersecurity Index of the International Telecommunication Union, where the UAE stands in the first tier with full marks on all five pillars. It's a testimonial that we are really supporting every single effort for cybersecurity. Governments do not implement a convention alone. The private sector holds the platforms where crime takes place and the evidence it leaves behind. Civil society carries prevention and trust into communities. Academia builds the expertise every one of us will need. Artificial intelligence now works as well. The road from signature to implementation calls for sustained political commitment, technical cooperation, and mutual trust. We stand here today ready to work with the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Member States, and every partner in this hall to turn this convention into a working instrument with measurable results. This Congress here in Abu Dhabi is where that chapter begins. And let's begin it together with you all. Thank you very much.

I think there were some very wise words in there about us all being in this together. And it's very pertinent for what we're here today to talk about, that this is something that can't be done by one country alone or one organization alone. We must all join together. I understand we have some requests for some interventions from the floor. I'll open it up for a couple of interventions. From the International Development Law Organization, we have Ms. Jan Beagle, the Director General.

Thank you very much, and thank you to you and ODC and to all the panellists. IDLO very much welcomes the Convention as a really key global framework for strengthening collective responses to an increasingly complex and transnational challenge. And as the Deputy Minister Foreign Affairs from Vietnam has said ratification must go hand in hand with effective implementation, and for that implementation the rule of law will be central, including in translating the provisions of the convention into strong national legislation, capable institutions, and effective international cooperation while safeguarding human rights and due process. And this is where IDLO will be pleased to contribute. As the only global intergovernmental organization that is exclusively devoted to promoting the rule of law to advance peace and sustainable development, we support partners to strengthen legal and policy frameworks, build the capacities of investigators, prosecutors, and judicial officers, and enhance cooperation throughout the criminal justice chain within countries and across borders. We also support the provision of accessible legal services to protect victims and reinforce community resilience to reduce the vulnerabilities that cybercrime seeks to exploit. And we develop rule of law solutions that are tailored to contexts and the needs of our partners. Aotearoa stands ready to work with UNODC, Member States and other partners to encourage ratification of this important criminal justice treaty and to help translate the commitments in the convention into effective implementation at national, regional and global levels. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. We're always looking for partnerships to do this together. We have a lot of work and a lot of heavy lifting in front of us. I have a request for one further intervention from the State Secretary, the Deputy Minister of Interior from the Russian Federation, Mr. Igor Zhibov.

Good afternoon, colleagues. I thank you for the invitation and express my gratitude to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime for organizing this event, which will undoubtedly contribute скорейшему вступлению в силу конвенции оон против киберпреступности наша страна высоко оценивает подписанное в двадцать пятом году во вьетнаме нового международного антикриминального договора напомню что его разработка была инициирована российской федерацией.

Dear colleagues, thank you for the invitation. And also, I would like to express my gratitude to the UNODC for the organization of this event, which will definitely facilitate a prompt entry of the UN Convention against Cybercrime into force. Our country highly estimates the signing of this new international anti-crime treaty in Vietnam in 2025. And to remind you, this was the Russian Federation that initiated the elaboration of this convention.

Этот документ стал первым универсальным юридически обязывающим инструментом для отправления уголовного правосудия в цифровой среде и международной информационной безопасности в целом. Востребованность Конвенции подтверждается тем, что менее чем за год под ней поставили подписи уже более 90 государств, и этот.

Процесс продолжается.

This document has become the first universal legally binding instrument, in particular to serve criminal justice in the digital sphere and in general for the international information security. The demand for this convention is confirmed by more than 90 countries, which have signed it in less than one year, and this process is ongoing.

В России ведется активная межведомственная работа по запуску и реализации необходимых для ратификации Конвенции внутригосударственных процедур. Рассчитываем, что уже в ближайшее время мы закончим эту работу. Поддерживаем предложение посла Катара при ООН в Вене господина Хасима Аль-Хамата о необходимости уже в ближайшее время принять дополнительные протоколы к Конвенции.

In particular, we propose to expand the criminalizing scope of the Convention, that is, to extend its action to the composition of crimes involving the use of ICT in terrorist and extremist purposes, for the trade in drugs, weapons and people, as well as other dangerous activities.

Russia is having active interagency work to launch and implement domestic procedures which are necessary to ratify the Convention, and we expect to finalize this in the near future. Also, we support the suggestion of His Excellency Mr. Al-Hamad, Ambassador of the State of Qatar to Vienna, regarding a need to adopt additional protocols. for the convention in the near future. We propose to enhance the criminalization scope of the convention, in particular to expand its coverage to elements of crime that provide for ICT use in terrorist and extremist purposes, for the trafficking in weapons and in human beings, as well as other dangerous actions.

The mandate of the Special Committee remains, and we are all obliged to ensure the maximum application of the mechanisms enshrined in the Convention in the practice of law enforcement. We call on national delegations to responsibly address this issue and review it in January 2027 in the context of the upcoming.

Meeting of the experts of the Special Committee on the Elaboration of a Supplementary Protocol. Thank you for your attention. We invite national delegations to take a responsible approach to this question and solve it in January 2027 at the forthcoming meeting of the experts of the ad hoc committee to elaborate the additional protocol. And thank you for your attention.

Thank you very much. And that's the end of our formal interventions. We're now going to pivot a little bit. I'm going to, first of all, thank our excellencies for their interventions here today, and I'll ask them to take a seat in the audience. And I'm now going to, we're going to get into the operationalizing, what does it mean and how do we do this with our partners? I'm going to ask my learned colleagues and counterparts from the Council of Europe and from Interpol and from UNODC to join me here on the panel. And we're going to have a bit of a fireside chat about what it means to take these next steps in partnership to make this operational. Phil, just anywhere. You want the three seats. So first of all, I'll ask you each to just if you could just introduce yourself, your role within your respective agencies, and then I'll just have a series of questions to talk about the convention. Wendy, if I could start with you.

Thanks very much, Glenn. Thank you very much everyone for being here. My name is Wendy O'Brien. I lead the work at UNODC that is related to promoting ratification of the convention. Happy to talk about that with you today. Thanks.

Thank you, Glen. Thank you for inviting Interpol to be part of this panel. My name is Enrique Hernandez Gonzalez. I'm the Assistant Director for Cyber Crime Operations in Interpol. So my role is basically support all the operational activity from member countries, both at global and regional level.

My name is Gianluca Esposito. I'm the Director General for Human Rights and Rule of Law at the Council of Europe. Also on my side, I wish to thank the colleagues from EuroDC for inviting us. The Budapest Convention on Cybercrime of the Council of Europe falls within my responsibilities, and the implementation of this convention is within my remit. As I mentioned to some of my colleagues before, in my previous younger age, I was involved in drafting of our Budapest Convention on Cybercrime 25 years ago, so I happen to know the topic as well.

Great to have you, Gianluca. That's an interesting amount of experience that you bring to the table, so looking forward to your responses. So, Wendy, the UN Convention against Cybercrime has been heralded as an important achievement that will ultimately bolster the capabilities of member states to combat and prevent cybercrime. Can you briefly outline some of the key benefits of the convention?

Thanks, Glenn. I think the first thing to say, it has been said already, it's the first global treaty to harmonize how states criminalize, investigate, and cooperate on crimes that are committed through information communication technologies, ICTs. The UN Secretary General has said that in cyberspace, no one is safe until everyone is safe. And I think that this is another way of saying what we have heard in the high-level panel just now, that we're all in this together. And so the Convention has a lot, I think, to offer in respect to this shared challenge that we have globally. So we do know, of course, that the weaponization of technology has significantly lowered the barrier for entry to criminality. It now requires almost no resources and actually even no know-how, because artificial intelligence can provide information as to how individuals enter a life of crime using the devices that they can purchase for very little money. So that lowered barrier of entry is part of the challenge. We know that criminals in general and cyber criminals demonstrate remarkable agility, exploiting the vulnerabilities in our response. The fact that we are not joined up, the fact that we have difficulty gathering electronic evidence, the fact that we are slow and that we are bound by sometimes gaps in legislation and sometimes other impediments that are legislative or regulatory. So what we have is pockets of impunity, safe havens globally that are being very effectively exploited by cyber criminals. And so the convention on the convention against cybercrime has a great deal to offer here. Because It can assist with this challenge that we have in keeping pace with the evolving nature of cybercrime. The technology neutral language within the convention means that this is not something that will be outdated as soon as these modalities of criminality evolve. It will facilitate access to electronic evidence, and I think this is one of the core benefits of the convention. and it will help deal with the challenges that we have around the complexities of these crimes, particularly as they occur across borders, and the need for very rapid response there. So the Convention against Cybercrime offers a single framework that establishes a set of common criminal cybercrime offences, and I think that that is particularly valuable not only in symbolic terms that we are recognising the need for states to take action on this, and states indeed have recognised that through their elaboration and agreement of this convention, but that it provides that. common language for addressing these crimes and there is a lot of time that will be saved in that. So if we think about mutual legal assistance, for example, where there is this common language, so pursuant to specific articles of the convention, we request this international cooperation. It also provides procedural powers at the national level for acquisition and preservation of electronic evidence, very important. as well as common modernized standards relating to the confiscation and return of proceeds of crime. And I think above all, it's really a mechanism for strengthened international cooperation on these matters, in particular relating to the acquisition and sharing of electronic evidence. And we would also refer there to practical mechanisms that the Convention envisages, the 24/7 network, for example. So within the Convention itself, there are mechanisms that really go to this operationalization that we want to see. So I think that perhaps if we were to think about the Convention as a framework, it is a framework for cooperation, it is a framework for trust. globally. It is trust that we need between our law enforcement officials, prosecutors across borders in order to expedite investigation and prosecution of cybercrime. It is a framework for action, and in that, it's a framework for speed. So I think that if we want to sort of go back to the Secretary-General's remark about cyberspace, no one is safe until we are all safe. I think that this is our shared global framework for closing those geographic gaps, those technological gaps, the legal gaps, those enforcement gaps that criminals are so effectively exploiting today. Thank you.

INTERPOL has been supporting law enforcement across all forms of crime for a very long time. Can you provide an overview of Interpol's efforts to support its member countries in relation to cybercrime?

Thanks. We must consider that cybercrime investigation usually does not really come as a single package. What investigators usually have is an IP address that's in one country, or a malicious infrastructure that's in another one, maybe a victim that's in a third country, or funds that are moving from one country to another. Usually police services, they don't really see the whole picture. And that's where my organization, Interpol, comes in. Our job is to connect law enforcement agencies all over the world to allow them to work together before the criminal organization can really move. To achieve this in Interpol, we provide a range of police capabilities to the member countries, notices, diffusions, operational networks, capacity building that give Interpol a unique position in the global law enforcement architecture. They are the foundation in which our work to combat cyber crime, financial crime, or crimes against children are built, but focusing specifically on cyber crime, our response has three main characteristics, intelligence led, operational coordination, and driving local impact. As I said, cybercrime investigation can begin with an IP address, a cryptocurrency wallet, or a report from a victim. Usually that really tells little information to the investigation, but we must consider that maybe that's another country that's investigating that IP address Maybe there's a private partner that's already looking at that malicious infrastructure, or maybe there's another country that's also investigating that cryptocurrency wallet. So in Interpol, through our Global Cyber Fusion Center, our cybercrime regional desks that are covering all the regions, and through our Gateway Framework, that's our framework for trusted partnership with the private sector, we are able to bring all those fragments together. So in Interpol, we validate and enrich that intelligence, identify these links against jurisdictions, and build a common operational picture. So to make this concrete, I'm going to talk about a couple of operations that I have the honor to lead recently. So for example, in Asia and South Pacific, we recently coordinated an operation against info stealers. So the way that we coordinate operation is that we get information from the private partners, we enrich and validate that information, so we probably have these targeted packages from member countries, so local law enforcement agencies can really identify servers, operators, and victims, and enforce coordinated actions in their respective jurisdictions. And what are the results that we're able to achieve? Well, more than 20,000 malicious IP addresses were dismantled, 41 servers were seized, more than 100 gigabytes of information were secured, 32 suspects were arrested and more than 200,000 victims were identified and notified. But for me what's important is not really the results, it's the change. In Interpol we are able to turn intelligence into investigations, investigations into coordinated actions, and coordinated actions into real disruption, ultimately protecting victims. That's what matters. In Africa, for example, we apply the same model to combat a broad range of cybercrimes, including ransomware, business e-mail compromise, or online scams. Before the operational phase, the investigators receive a practical training on cryptocurrency training, open source investigation, or ransomware investigations. Then they applied this knowledge into live targets. And what are the results? More than 1,200 arrests, more than 1,000 infrastructures dismantled, almost 90,000 victims identified, and almost $100 million US dollars recovered. That's why I usually say that operations themselves are usually the strongest form of capacity building. It's what we call learning by doing. We have also recently coordinated another operation in the Middle East and North Africa. the first one in this region. But what's important is not the name of the operation or even what region it is. What's important in that in all these cases, these countries that were holding different pieces of information were able to work together against the same criminal ecosystem. So this leads us to another approach. At Interpol, we do not see capacity building and operations as two separate activities. Because you can train an investigator on ransomware in a classroom, but when we have a real crime is when we really need to take action because the servers are still active, the logs and information may be lost. The proceeds are already moving and we need to coordinate different countries in order to tackle this criminal network. So our operational desk are really important here because they are the ones that are allowed to understand the needs of the countries to build both operational activity and build capability developments about those needs. So the objective is not simply to deliver more training, it's to produce more capable investigators who can successfully work international cases, disrupt cybercrime, and protect communities. And we must consider that cybercrime investigations do not operate on a legal or institutional vacuum. That's why investigator needs effective legislation, lawful access to electronic evidence, trusted international partners, trained counterparts, and mechanisms that allow them to cooperate quickly. That's why our relationship, our partnership with UNODC or with the Council of Europe are so important. Because although we bring different mandates and expertise, we are working towards the same objective, making international cooperation work in practice for investigators. We must also consider that cybercrime landscape are really changing fundamentally nowadays. It's evolving to what we call the industrialization of cybercrime. Meaning that nowadays we are not really looking at individuals that are developing a technical attack from scratch. We are really seeing an entire criminal service economy with malware and ransomware being offered as a service, ready-made phishing kits, or access to compromised systems being bought and sold. That means that criminals can now buy the different components of an attack of the cell, lowering the barrier to entry, and allowing criminal activity to scale much faster. And artificial intelligence is accelerating this shift. because it can help criminals to generate convincing phishing content in different languages, automatize social engineering, produce synthetic identities and deepfakes, and at a scale and speed that previously would have required much more resources. So for us, operationally, that means that we have to look beyond individual offenders or individual attack. We need to understand who is providing the tools, infrastructures, the access, who is moving the money, and most importantly, at what point of these criminal ecosystems law enforcement agencies can really take action. And we must also consider that it's important to see how we can also use artificial intelligence from the law enforcement side to combat these criminal organizations. That's why in Interpol, we have also been working on the responsible use of artificial intelligence in law enforcement. including through the responsible AI innovation in law enforcement toolkit developed jointly with UNICRI. Because the objective is to help police take advantage of AI while ensuring that its use remains lawful, proportionate, accountable, and consistent with human rights and policing capabilities. So to summarize, cybercrimes present us a very simple challenge. Criminals do not see borders where law enforcement agencies do. Because a single criminal network can operate in one country, target victims in another one, move money through a third one, and maybe be thousands of kilometers away. Our job is to make that those borders are less useful for criminal organizations. We do that by connecting the intelligence that reveals the network, the investigators that can pursue it, the private sector that often see threats before we do, partnership with organizations such as UNODC or Council of Europe that ensure that legal frameworks and capabilities are there to support international action. But ultimately, we need to translate this in something very concrete, a server that's taken down, criminal proceeds that are recovered on fund or frozen, suspects that are identified and arrested, and victims that are protected. Because that's the real measure of successful international cooperation for us. It's not how much intelligence we exchange. It's what we are able to do with that intelligence. Because cyber criminals are already operating as a global network. So our responsibility in Interpol is to ensure that law enforcement can operate as one, too.

Thank you, Anton Riki. Some really good examples of getting member states to work together to achieve strong operational outcomes. Over to you, Gianluca. The Council of Europe plays an important role in providing a mechanism for parties through the Budapest Convention to prevent and combat cybercrime. Can you please provide an overview of these efforts?

Thank you very much. I'll try to be brief given the time. 25 years ago, the Council of Europe adopted the Budapest Convention on Cybercrime. Now, for those who are intrigued by the notion that there are two conventions on cybercrime, maybe let me take this out of the way. It's not unusual that regional organizations adopt conventions before the UN and vice versa. We have cases where the UN adopts convention before regional organization. That's life of international affairs. That's how multilateralism advances, and that's a good thing, actually. So 25 years ago, we adopted the Convention on Cybercrime that today is ratified by 83 countries around the world. The last one was Asian. And with another 20 or so whose legislation is basically on par with our convention, there are about 100 countries in the world today that use the Budapest Convention as a legal basis for countering cybercrime. The convention has been completed with two protocols. The second one, which is very important because it deals with electronic evidence. And let me pause for a second because, you know, we, and I'm going to talk about AI later, so we're all very technologically advanced here, but I just want to submit that in fact, these treaties are really important for any crime, because I cannot think of any crime today, none, and we have Interpol colleagues here, I'm sure he has more experience than me, but I can't think of any crime that doesn't have any form of, some form of electronic evidence. Just think about the, you know, domestic violence, theft, murders, you know, very traditional, if I can call them this way, crimes very often have electronic evidence, pictures on your phones, SMS exchanged, very basic stuff that actually are important for investigators. And that's why the legal basis against cybercrime is so important, not just for agentic AI, which we'll probably talk about later, but also for very, very traditional crimes. And as our friend from Azerbaijan reminded us earlier, These evidence can be deleted in a matter of minutes. So if we are not fast enough, they're going to go. So legal basis is important. That's why we have this convention on cybercrime. The second pillar of our work has to do with the monitoring and the guidance we provide to member states. And here really it's about making sure that countries apply, you know, all these countries that ratify the convention. We heard it before. Ratification is a legal act that makes the convention binding on the countries. We want to make sure that this is actually implemented in practice. And our committee, TCY is called the Cybercrime Committee, looks at that specifically, but it also looks at new trends. And I mentioned AI. AI is one of them, but there is also virtual assets that we are looking at lately. And then the last bit of our work is related to what we call capacity building. You call it technical assistance, but it's basically the same. We have our cybercrime hub is based in Bucharest, Romania, and our cybercrime capacity today is about 40 million euro budget, 50 staff member, and work with around 140 countries, completely dedicated to the implementation of the convention. So we really look forward to working together with Europol to bring all these standards in real life when it comes to countering any form of crimes committed on or against or through computer systems because that's how the definition used to go. Thank you.

Thank you so much. The partnership we have with the Council of Europe is a really interesting one, but I have to say the maturity of that engagement is really, really important because we can have true, proper conversations with people that have an organisation that's already trodden this ground before and learn a lot of lessons along the way and they're very open to share those things with us. I'm just going to ask each of you to give some brief answers to the following questions, if you can limit it to two or three minutes that would be great. So Wendy, we've heard a lot about the importance the UNODC has placed on promoting the rapid entry into force of this convention. Could you give us a little bit of an overview of what UNODC intends to do to achieve that goal?

Certainly. It's a hive of activity at the moment. As you know, the Convention is open for signature until the end of the year. We have just concluded a treaty event during high-level week at the General Assembly in New York, where we invited member states to undertake treaty action while there were heads of state, ministers of foreign affairs in New York. And this was one successful mechanism to increase the number of signatories to the Convention. Convention, and we now have in excess of 90, we have 93 states that have, we now have 93 signatories, one is the European Union, and we want to see in excess of 100 before that period of signature closes. To promote ratification, apart from this treaty event, we are holding regional events with a number of member states to share information about the convention and its benefits. And I think in this, what we're doing really is having conversations with member states about the needs that they have with respect to cybercrime, these challenges that we all face. In some countries there's a lot of infrastructure, there's a lot of know-how, and in other countries there is less, but we do all share these challenges, and so it's really important to come together in this way. So there are six regional events that we are convening in this year. and we have plans for a further three next year. But really, I think that the primary mechanism is the individual tailored work with member states. So this is really an invitation to member states to reach out to us if you would like to know more about the convention and how it can help with the cybercrime challenges that you're facing. And we can look at, you know, national legislation to see the extent to which that aligns with the convention, we can provide some support with that. guidance on institution strengthening, et cetera. And I think in the interest of time, I'll leave it there. Thank you.

Thanks very much, Wendy. Yeah, I know we have a lot of work in front of us. I can say we, yes. Enrique, the UN Convention against Cybercrime, it hasn't been operationalized yet, but how do you see in the future this impacting on the way that Interpol go about their work?

Thanks, Glenn. It's true that it's going to be changes, but we see it more than an acceleration, that more than a-- sorry. an acceleration more than a fundamental change in our role in Interpol. Because for Interpol, the challenge now is how to translate that framework into something an investigator can really use when a case is live. So we see very practical changes ahead. The first one, we see fewer legal barriers and therefore more opportunities for operational cooperation. Because if countries speak the same legal language, it's easier to preserve electronic evidence, exchange information, pursue suspects across jurisdictions, and move from an intelligence lead to a formal criminal justice request. In other words, We should be able to spend less time overcoming differences and more time pushing the criminal networks. We also expect a greater use of Interpol existing operational channels. It's important because in our case, Interpol is recognized in four important areas, extradition, mutual legal assistance, rapid exchange of law enforcement information, and the 24/7 network. So as the implementation progresses, I would expect these mechanisms to be used even more frequently and more systematically. And there has been practical consequences for INTERPOL as well, as we need to make sure that these mechanisms remain available and secure. The third, the one big change may also be capacity building because having a legal power and being operationally able to use it, it's two different things. So convention creates new opportunities for cooperation, but countries need investigators, prosecutors, and contact points who understand how to use those provisions into action. Fourth, there may be also international cooperation started earlier in an investigation. This could be one of the most important changes. Because traditional international cooperation can sometimes be treated as something that happens after a national investigation has been concluded. And obviously, cybercrime does not really give us that luxury. So the moment we identify a cyber overseas or a foreign wallet, it's when our investigation is already international. So we really hope that with the implementation, investigators are really encouraged to think internationally from the very beginning of the case, rather than when they reach the end of their national jurisdiction. And last but not least, we will require to work even closer with UNODC and the Council of Europe along other stakeholder because obviously no single organization can tackle cybercrime alone. That's why Concluding, we really foresee change, but we don't really think the future is about Interpol creating a new whole cybercrime architecture. Much of the operational infrastructure already exists, but the opportunity created by the convention is to make it more accessible, more consistent, and more widely used across our 196 member countries. Ultimately, the implementation should be judged by a very practical test. Does an investigator dealing with a cross-border cybercrime tomorrow have a better chance of getting information, evidence, on cooperation than they have today? If the answer is yes, it's when the convention is really making an operational difference. And our role in Interpol is to make sure that that's happening.

Thanks, Enrique. I'm going to ask Gianluca another question, but after that, I want to give everyone else here an opportunity if you have any questions. So just start thinking about what those questions might be, if you have any, in a moment. So, Gianluca, I want to pivot a little bit. We've spoken a lot about member states, how they should work together, how international organizations should work together, but we haven't really spoken about the role of civil society, academia, and the private sector in this whole mix. Can you please outline what you see as the biggest challenge for member states to forge and maintain such relationships?

Thank you very much. I don't know how we can do this work without cooperating with all these actors that you just described. If you think about it, the private sector has the data, just to summarize it. Academics, they carry out the research. And NGOs, civil society provides the necessary checks and balance that when we use the procedural powers, we do that while respecting basic safeguards. So these are three key actors. But of course, there are challenges. First challenge, in my view, is trust. We want to make sure that the trust, mutual trust, exists between states, law enforcement, public authorities, and these, let's call them, private sector entities, just collectively. Second challenge is that we should move from sporadic, occasional cooperation to systematic cooperation. I think we should move away from the notion that we simply call upon a company when we need them. but we have to build that relationship over time. And for that, and that's the third challenge, is to create an environment that is suitable for that cooperation to take place. And that creation of that environment is really something that's built over time. It's not something that you're going to improvise in one day, because traditionally, these have been two different worlds. We in the Council of Europe, we bring those together once a year, even twice these days. Precisely because I cannot imagine our collective work against cybercrime without partnering with these entities. So it's a step states in all its components has to gauge and undertake if we want to be successful in this area.

Thanks, John. Look, it's a very important aspect for us to think about, more so in this type of crime than anything else, cybercrime. you cannot investigate it unless you have proper relationships with all of those different stakeholders. As I said, I just wanted to open it up. You've sat there and listened for over an hour to some interventions from a whole broad range of different member states and international organizations. Are there any questions that you want to pose to our panel members in relation to the convention? I just want to give this opportunity. Yes, sir, just if you can say your name and where you're from, and then your question.

Thank you, moderator. Name is Nurdin. I am from Indonesia. So my question will be about the emerging cases in Southeast Asia. As you might already know, we have currently battling a massive epidemic of transnational cyber fraud and online gambling. So I would just like to discuss more about the implementation of this UN conventions to be operationalized specifically to empower regional blocks like ASEAN to conduct rapid joint cross-border operations rather than relying in traditional MLA channels. So maybe it's for the INTERPOL and UNODC. Thank you, moderator.

Much. This is really a great question because now we're really getting to talk about what it is that the convention is for. Because it will take nothing less than extremely smooth international cooperation at speed to deal with this sort of industrialization of cybercrime that has been mentioned and to which you are alluding. And I think that this is where the real challenge in the work that we're doing at UNODC comes. It's not difficult to encourage member states to ratify the convention because they want to, they know that they need this instrument. What is going to be challenging is this piece of work that I didn't mention before, but that we're currently doing now, which is developing really a number of knowledge products, capacity building activities, et cetera, that really can assist with operationalizing the convention. I think that this is where it's extremely important to acknowledge the importance of partnerships. So, for example, Council of Europe, there is a wealth of expertise. with 25 years there for us to benefit from on how to build a network of trust which occurs with the Budapest Convention. And I think that that's where Interpol also has expertise in bringing law enforcement together and so on. These partnerships will be a very important part of operationalizing the Convention. Thanks.

And Ricky, do you want to add anything to that, just briefly if you could?

Yes. I think it's important because we all are seeing that there's a very big problem with these kind of threats. I mean, it is starting in Southeast Asia, but it's moving all over the world. That's why, at least in Interpol, we are putting together a task force to work against these kind of crimes. Obviously, it's something that cannot be really only along with law enforcement agencies. That's where we are bringing together all the relevant stakeholders, including obviously the private sector. And I think that the convention would really help us to get the evidence that we really need from the different countries, because we are working together on putting in the same room all the people from the different police services that matter. It's not only cyber crime at this point. It's cyber crime, it's financial crime, it's human trafficking. But usually, obviously, with the implementation of the convention, it will be way easier to get all those evidence that we need from the private sector, and that will make it really easier for law enforcement agencies to tackle this problem that's becoming something that's no longer localized in Southeast Asia. It's moving all over the world nowadays.

Thanks, Enrique. In the interest of time, I'm just going to go back to each of the panel members. I'm going to ask you in one minute, I'm going to put the timer on you, to sum up what the people in this room should take away from this session and from the next steps of the convention. I'll start with Wendy. So one minute, go.

One minute, thanks, Glenn. The Convention against Cybercrime is our shared framework for preventing and combating crime. I'm really pleased, though, to be on a panel with Jean-Luc, also representing the Budapest Convention, representing the Council of Europe, to talk about the Budapest Convention, because I want to highlight the complementarity of these two legal instruments. because they are entirely complementary and mutually reinforcing. And I think that beyond that, there's something to say about the continuity of commitment that member states globally have made on this issue. 25 years ago with Budapest, now with the United Nations Convention against Cybercrime, it's 25 years of commitment to tackling this, and I think that now is the time to ratify it and let's get this done. Thanks.

Good timing. Okay, Enrique, your time starts now.

Thank you. I think that when we think about a crime that's totally borderless, cybercrime is the one that comes to our mind. So obviously, as in Interpol, we try to close those gaps, bringing together law enforcement agencies all over the world to work together. But police cooperation sometimes is not really effective without something behind that allow those police forces to gather those evidences that they need from all the different jurisdictions. So that's what I really think that the convention is really going to be an important step forward because it's really going to make those evidences that are really essential for law enforcement agencies to combat something that's totally global, like cybercrime, to get those evidences timely and in a way that is really going to make it possible to really combat something that's totally transnational nowadays as it's cybercrime in a more effective and timely way.

Not bad. Two seconds over.

Yeah, thank you. I'll be very short. Look, I talked about traditional crimes before. Let me say, we are in a world where AI agents are committing crimes today. And just open any news outlet out there, you'll find it today. So we have to join forces, and I would like to just echo what Wendy said. The key word here is complementarity. There is complementarity between the Budapest Convention and the UN Convention. Both will actually make a difference in practice for all countries in the world. Whether you are a party to the Budapest Convention or to the UN or to both, you're going to make a real difference if you ratify these conventions. So I don't think we should delay this because, as I said, the speed of light with which technology is advancing is overtaking all of our efforts. So let's redouble our efforts to join these instruments, ratify them and implement them in practice. And the key word I repeat is complementarity. Thank you very much.

Thanks, Gianluca. I'd like to all of you to give a big round of applause for the panel here today. It's It's great to have these organisations to come together and this wealth of experience to talk about this, so I really appreciate your time and your thoughtful comments in relation to the Convention. For those who haven't signed the Convention, please put pressure on your countries to do so and move towards ratifying the Convention. We are all in this together. The UNODC and our partners are here to help you along the journey, so Let's make it happen. Thank you very much for your time and thank you. Enjoy the rest of the Crime Congress. Thank you.