Migration as a Creative Force - Goals Lounge

Hello and a big welcome to all of you joining us today in the Gold Lounge here and online. Our conversation is the third installment in a dialogue series that the UN Office for Partnerships has developed with our IOM partners with a view to trying to deepen and enrich the discourse at the IMRF this week. Today's discussion will let us explore an aspect of migration which is often overlooked and undervalued. Unpacking and articulating how migration enriches and transforms the arts and creative industries can be an important tool in showing the value of migration in our communities and in our cultures. And so to get us started this afternoon, I'm very happy to welcome to the stage our moderator for this session, Fran Celestine, along with our panel.

Thanks John for the introduction. Thank you, the UN Office for Partnership for giving us this space for this conversation and thank all of you for being here today. As John mentioned, this dialogue is one of four high level conversations in the Migration Solution in Action series. It's a conversation that is convened by IOM and the UN Office for Partnership on the margins of the imrf. This series explore innovative and practical solutions to advance the GCM implementation covering financing, which you'll hear later tonight with our DDG and the Vice Prime Minister of the Netherlands, media and narrative and also Green Transition which we had last night. And today we're going to focus on culture and creativity. The purpose of today is to explore how migration has always been one of the drivers, powerful drivers of cultural innovation and to ask what would it take to for this contribution to be recognized, to be celebrated and supported through policies. And this room obviously reflects this ambition. We are joined by artists, cultural practitioners, leaders from cultural institutions and museums, city representative civil society, migrants organization, representative UN agencies, governments, research institutions and the media. This is a deliberately unusual mix for GCM conversation and of course that is precisely the point. So we structured our conversation today around three movements. The work where we begin with Pritika, an IOM global advocate, entrepreneur and creative voice, will speak on how cities and institutions are creating space for migrate creativity. And she will tell us what works and what doesn't. We gonna go next to the place where we turn to a practitioner's voice. And Stella Opoku from the African foundation for Development who will share concrete examples of how diaspora and migrant led initiatives deliver impacts on the ground across culture, inclusion and local development. And we'll connect them with the bridge where we're going to have a conversation on the policy perspective. And we are honored to have with us today a policy voice with the Deputy Permanent Representative of Colombia, Ambassador Raul Sanchez, to reflect on how governments can better enable support these initiatives to international cooperation, GCM implementation and cross sector partnership. So the way we'll have this conversation, I will ask a question of the panelists. They will have 10 minutes to share their insights and their wisdom. And once they are done, I'm going to throw it to you, the audience, to hear from you, your insights, your reflections, comments and questions that you may have for the panelists. And then we'll close with one last question to our panelists. Prajika, I'm going to start with you first. From your own experience as a creative entrepreneur, how do you think migration, from your own experience or someone else's, sparks innovation or open a door that simply would not have existed otherwise?

Well, migration is not just about the movement of people. It's about the movement of ideas and talent and traditions. And, you know, I believe when these experiences come together, they spark these new ideas, they spark like new ways of thinking, new forms of expression and ultimately innovation. So when I started my career, I'm Indian. My background is Indian, and I've always been deeply proud of my culture, my heritage. And that's been a really big influence in every area of my life. When I think about just not only in the fashion industry, but also working with different nonprofits, I've had the opportunity to travel the world and get exposed to different communities, different creative communities as well. And from that I've seen that really these amazing creatives, these amazing communities, they come together and it just breeds this new sense of innovation. And I think that the differences with the communities, the differences with understanding, one person can have a certain thought and then we can have a certain thought and also come together and just really just be able to share our perspectives in like an open space. So I think one of the things I wanted to talk about, there are several things I wanted to talk about, but I think one of the things I really wanted to talk about is, you know, my beauty brand. And it's a really good example of how I've combined two cultures from whether it's Indian culture, it's Ayurveda, it's a traditional wellness practice with like modern clinical science. And that's what we were used to here in the industry and being able to bridge those worlds. And I think a lot of people with shared experiences are actually able to bridge these worlds together because they have such a deep understanding of both. And that's where I think the sweet spot is. So, you know, we were Able to create these products that really have an impact and that do make a difference in people's lives. And I think especially in my modeling career, you know, I was one of the first models in New York and that was an of Indian heritage and there were some, you know, before me, but I was one of those. And I was in several campaigns. I was down definitely that token Indian model. And it was very surprising to me to see the lack of representation and inclusivity in the industry. And especially as more voices came into the industry, more diverse voices, where we could actually talk about what representation means, what representation, true representation of the world that we live in, of all the different cultures and that can go across different races, across different identities, and allowing those voices to come in and just open up new conversations has been a game changer for the industries that I've worked in. And there's still a very long way to go. But we really have come so far, especially, you know, given what 2014, it's not been very long, but it's been long enough to actually give people the platform to share from their own experiences and to really open people's eyes to how it should be. And those are just two of my personal experiences and how migration has really, like I said, bred this innovation. And I mean, there's so much more I could share about it. I do think that, I do think that it's something very, very important. My grandfather came here, gosh, he came here after the Vietnam War and he came and told us that we needed to integrate. And my mom and my dad always said we should be really proud of our culture and hopefully be able to use that to contribute to society in a more meaningful and a more impactful way. So those are just some of my experiences that I feel are so important for people to understand and then be proud of where they come from, be proud of what they can do to contribute.

Thank you very much, Pritika. Migration is more than just people on the move. As you said, it's about culture, it's about experience, it's about innovation. Migration breeds innovation. And migration creates this space for cross pollination. And what we've seen, that's what civilization is about. That's how we evolve from where we started. All right, so thank you. I may come back to you for more. Now we're going to go to Stella. Stella. The diaspora communities have long been the beating heart of cultural innovation. From music to art, to fashion to storytelling. Carrying the tradition across borders while creating entirely new ones. Yet this is rarely translate into recognize and the recognition that it needs and no resources that is needed to drive wider development. What is the single biggest barrier? And what would it take for government donors, institutions to get behind them?

Thank you very much, Franz. Good afternoon, everyone. It always feels like a trick sort of question when you ask what's the single biggest barrier? You can think of several barriers. However, you can give us three if you like. However, I would say just very directly to that question, a lack of engagement and appreciation of the significance of arts, culture and heritage as part of the entrepreneurial ecosystem. And therefore, as with a lot of SME ecosystems, there's also a lack of financing, obviously. And alongside that, also the technical assistance also to be able to grow. I'll come back to that. But what I also wanted to do was just to provide a number of examples also that we see in the diaspora space, and not just from the African perspective, which is a focus for us. But I wanted to look at the diaspora and migrants in three different areas. One, as bridge builders and cultural ambassadors. And in relation to that, also the diaspora and migrants as advocates for change and as markets for and enablers of socioeconomic development. So in terms of the diaspora being bridge builders between their countries of residence and countries of heritage, we often describe them as cultural ambassadors. They, they consume and therefore they also promote arts and culture and music and food and fashion and so forth. You know, you look, you look at the cities of London, you look at New York City, and you see a lot of this diversity around you. And also, and a lot of it is also driven obviously by diaspora and migrants, but also by the generational diaspora. And by that, I mean, second generations, their generation, as well as the historic diaspora as well, who connect back to countries of heritage. There are also a couple of reasons, I think, why this area is so important, because this area of arts and culture and heritage and that driver of having migrants and diaspora drivers can also be a soft power, which we don't have the time to talk about today. But definitely as a driver of socioeconomic development that benefits the diaspora or the migrants and also benefits the country of heritage and the country of destination. Just one or two examples related to this. In 2002, Thailand launched a global Thai program. This is probably the most famous example of a state funded restaurant expansion. And they provided financial support, they provided technical assistance, they even provided sort of prefabricated, sort of like designs of creating takeaways as well as restaurants and so forth. So you had a state actually supporting this for overseas support. And from my understanding, the impact was that from around 2002 to 2024, the restaurants across the world had grown from 5,500 to 17,000. Right. And you have similar examples like these, like these sorts of state funded restaurant expansion, such as the Malaysia Kitchen program, South Korea's cuisine to the world, and so forth. In fact, in recent times, I've had a gentleman who's trying to grow a Ghanaian food brand globally contact my organization to find out what support could be provided. But he's also been selected as a Cultural Ambassador by the Ghana High Commission as well. And so you can see how states can also obviously get involved in promoting this in terms of diaspora and migrants as advocates for change. The example I wanted to share with you was related to the work that we do. Part of the work that we do at afford, which is a Return of the Icons program, which has been successfully moving forward key conversations and diaspora advocacy around looted artifacts as well as ancestral remains that are held in Western museums and other cultural institutions. And through this work, we see the diaspora sort of raising issues of how countries are unable to understand their present without reference to their past. Their remark on the state of museums in the global south, impacting negatively on heritage tourism and cultural experience offers to the diaspora. Among other concerns, a case in point was the return of 26 artifacts from France to the Republic of Benin in 2022. And on the request of the diaspora, these artifacts were displayed for longer than they should have been because they wanted to go back and see them. And then also, of course, Republic of Benin also unveiled that they were building four new cultural institutions across the country, which I believe will be completed in the next year or two. But again, you can see how the diaspora also advocates for change within the arts and culture and creative, creative industries, looking at diaspora as markets for and enablers of socioeconomic development. So the diaspora themselves are markets. They are also consumers. They also drivers of this, of this area. And an example that I wanted to share, which I think a lot of people may also be familiar with, is the year of Return in Ghana in 2019, which showed how the Diaspora can drive the creative industries in African economies. In the year of 2019, they attracted more than 1.5 million diaspora visitors and generated around US$1.8 billion. And other African countries also see the potential of this in terms of driving their socioeconomic development in the years following that. You also have Dirty December in Nigeria, in Lagos, in the city, you've got it in Accra as well. And this is also driving quite a lot of socioeconomic development. It's Also, and I will come to this one, which always excites me. It's also driven by Afrobeats music as well, which I will come to in 2024, according to the Lagos State government figures, the city drew over 1.2 million diaspora visitors and injected an estimate of around $71.6 million into the local economy. And in 2025, again with Dirty December, in Lagos, hotels accounted for over $44 million, whilst short led apartments contributed over $13 million. And Afrobeats is arguably the most visible modern example of migration acting as a creative force. And I like that everyone laughed when I mentioned that, which means everyone knows about it. And it isn't just music from Africa. It's a circular exchange between the continent and its diaspora that has redefined global pop culture. Afrobeats was born from, you know, West Africans moving to the UK and the US in the early 2000s and sort of combining the sounds of high life and Fuji and so forth with local influences like UK grime and dancehall and hip hop. And this has resulted in what some call a borderless sound. And producers in London and Lagos, in Accra, collaborating real time, creating a loop where the music is constantly refined by both the home and diaspora perspectives. And again, a lot of these artists are also involved in packaging the music for global audiences and bringing it back to Nigeria or to Ghana. And there are a number of inferences that I could make regarding this, but also, we need to wrap up. But I also wanted to mention that if you also have a look at, for those of you who are on TikTok, I'm not, but I do know that TikTok also acts as a digital migration tool, allowing dances created in West African streets to be exported publicly by the diaspora in seconds. So to conclude, I mean, there is no doubt that migration creates strategic creative bridges and that diasporan migrants a significant role in driving this. In terms of just going back to the question around the single biggest barrier, I think I mentioned obviously that it needs to be looked at as an ecosystem the same way you would look at an SME ecosystem. And it needs to be supported in that way. And the barriers obviously relate to access to capital, a lack of. A lack of skills, skills and support. And of course, if you're also talking about migrants who are going through a process, often they might not have a local credit, what do you call it, history, to be able to access a loan and so forth. And so these also need to be looked at to see if there are alternative ways and alternative collateral, et cetera. That they could also provide. There is also often a policy mismatch as well where, you know, migration policies are often focused strictly on labor supply or security and fail to recognize creative work as a viable pathway for citizenship and entrepreneurship. And of course, the skills, not, not so much the skills gap, but just being able to translate the skills and professions that people have as well into this area. Just one quick example. In the UK there is what is called the global talent visa, I believe, and you do actually have a number of people in the Nollywood industry in Nigeria who have taken this up to come to the UK to study and hopefully to be able to find jobs in the market or to create something. I've met a number of them who are now driving Ubers for an existence. So while the pathway exists, the matching and the support for this doesn't quite work because you've also got local people who are also struggling to get into this space. So how do you look at all of that collectively and bring that together? We'll end there. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Stella, for some excellent examples. You did talk about the barriers, lack of financing and appreciation for arts and culture. You did mention something that I'm going to translate myself. It's. You mentioned state. I call it state SP Sponsored cultural exchange. Usually when you hear state sponsored, the next word begins with a T as in terrorism. But it's good to see that countries are creating links between them by exporting and exchanging culture and that the diaspora serves as a bridge to these cultures. All right, so you heard from the work, you heard from the voice. Now we're going to hear from the bridge. Ambassador Sanchez, Governments often acknowledge the value of migration as a creative force, but the gaps between recognition and enabling policy remains very wide. What concrete step has Colombia taken and what would you urge other governments to do to turn the GCM commitments into real support for migrant led initiatives?

Thank you for the invitation today and I'm so glad that I'm the last one to speak so I can a little bit reflect on what you have said in a very positive way because your question goes to the heart of what Colombia has lived in the past 20 years, which is to understand our reality in terms of migration. During this week I have heard that this country or this other country is a transit country or is a reception country. And sometimes reality changes so rapidly that the governments have to be prepared to be all of them nowadays.

Yes.

And that is one of the analysis that we have done and we can transmit to the world how Colombia has approached migration and the first order of business is not to see migration as something that a state has to deal with, as a phenomenon, but to see migration as an agent of change, of positive change, an agent of sustainable development, an agent of creativity, with the right tools coming from the public side, so you can integrate and you can make the most out of a reality. And which reality is that? 1, the 2.8 million migrants coming into Colombia, with expectancy of, of staying, of having, of making a livelihood in a country that is 1.1 million square kilometers in territory, which has 52 million people, and it's a middle income country that needed to understand its responsibility with migrants. That's why in 2021 we created a law, a comprehensive law about migration. And maybe that's one of the first answers to your question. Once you have decided what is the attitude as a public policy, you act on it, creating the tools to enable it. That capacity that this law in 2001 gave us as national government, was to integrate all stakeholders into that approach, that human mobility will contribute to our development, will contribute to our growth as a Society, that since 2021 has been translated, that national capacities, such as municipalities, we have governors in our system, political system, stakeholders from the United nations, from civil society, all of them have understood that this attitude that was permeated in our law created the opportunity to give that coherence in our approach of human mobility as an agent of change and an agent of creativity. That being said, it's a challenge always, because again, we go to the resources part, we go to the assimilation part from the society you mentioned, and you were very to the point to mention that when you arrived, there were some stereotypes, some things, some not rejection, but prevention, about things you mentioned about the programs that government can have, and sometimes to understand that diaspora can contribute. So there are many things that can come into play to be a little bit of a role to implementation. My second answer to your question, first one being having the legal tools to approach. The second is to integrate all the stakeholders in the dialogue, because you cannot, as a public officer, understand what a migrant can contribute to society. If you don't listen, you don't create the tools to have a proper communication so the proper authorities, in the case of a city can listen, that there are people that can come and create new SMEs, that they can come and create new culinary fields, for example. So that's the second part that you have to do. You have to change the way you communicate with migrants in a receptive way. And my third message might be A clear one in terms of, as a state. The United nations system is very much present in Colombia and all the agencies are there for different reasons. We have had a harsh history of violence that we are overcoming. And that has also given us a way of understanding what is peace and what is peace building. I want to tie it to the solution and to the third part of my answer. Peace in Colombia means many things in many regions of our country. As an urban person in Bogota, I cannot define peace in one way. The same way that 1000km in the Pacific region or in the Caribbean region of our very big territory. That is also an enabler of creating, giving the migrant the opportunity of integrating with the reality of Colombia, understanding that Colombia is always looking for a peaceful society. And by having the law of 2021, by regularizing many of the migrants and giving them opportunities. There's a big example that is always mentioned. Colombia decided to give more than 20,000 children the Colombian nationality from migrants only to enable them to access the health and caretaker system of our country. That decision was bold in terms of creating a capacity to have their welfare taken care of. So then we can have a dialogue on what we can engage as a community that is sharing the same territory, the same resources, which are not buoyant. So it's about taking from the public side bold decisions that are positive, that are proactive, but that reflect a simple answer. The way to approach migration is a way of a human approach, human rights, to give the migrant an opportunity to be heard, an opportunity to be integrated, an opportunity to access to regularization and then find ways to be part of the development of the country. One final comment. Colombia is very keen in mentioning that we share this with the world also with international cooperation, with dialogue, inter regional dialogue, we can create and understand from other examples, from other realities. There is a phrase, a very difficult phrase, when you talk here in New York about silos. Migration cannot be affected by silos mentality. Migration has to talk and public policies stakeholders have to talk from many parts of the world what you live in Southern Africa or in the Sahel, or what you live in Southeast Asia, or what you live in the vast subcontinent of India. We can learn in Latin America and the same way, the other way around. So just mentioned to the UN system and to all the stakeholders that we need to create more communication between migrant stakeholders so we can create a better future for all.

Thank you very much, Ambassador Sanchez. Excellent examples. I like the phrase, once you set a public policy, you have to create the tools to enable it. I think that's the way to go. Sometimes you have the laws, you have the legislation, you don't have the tools to implement it. And that's admirable what Colombia has done, not just the way it receives the migrants. The fact that you have 2.8 million migrants and refugees in Colombia, but Giving more than 20,000 children the presumption of nationality so they can access these social services that they need is indeed incredible. So there's a lot to learn from Colombia and there are very few countries that can stand up and say, we've done the same. We truly appreciate what you've done. Create the openness, the communication between the migrants and the state. That is very important. And I like the fact that you said, once the policy is created, once the enablers and the tools are created, having the stakeholders on board is extremely important. Ambassador Sanchez has been talking for quite some time because I saw him this morning at the UNICEF event at 8am so thank you. And I admire your stamina. So thank you very much. So you've heard from the voice, you've heard from the work, you've heard from the bridge. Now it's your turn. We want to hear from you, your reflection. It could be if you remember the state on what you've done, the sort of impact that you've made in migrant's life, or just questions straight to our panelists or just ask clarification and provide some examples. So it's now over to you, but first let's give round of applause to our family. All right. Yes,

my name is Lamer and I just wanted to flip the question around

and I'm wondering, how can creative industries

help support building positive narratives on migration and on.

On migrants?

Perhaps to our first two speakers, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

How can creative industries help support positive narratives migrants? And so I'll take three more and I'm hoping you're noting you need something to write.

Oh, yes, but it's fine. Are you going to do all the questions?

I would like to take four and then do it. Yeah. Is that okay? Yeah, we have one more here.

He's on. Okay. I'm gonna try to translate my best, my best possible. I'm not a translator. He doesn't necessarily have a question, but he want to share his experience. He's the Minister of Interior of Commerc. The thematic is very important for us because Comoros grown and been built by immigration. Comoros is an. Is an Indian Ocean influenced by the Arabic culture, African culture, and those culture bring the language the culture and. And religion. And the religion as well. And so commerce is being grown and built by the immigration coming from those different region in Asia as well. Immigration is the history of our Comoros. The Comorian language has been built by the Swahili, which is the East Africa and Arabic coming from the north. And the Malagasy come from the Asia on the Malagasy on the east side of Indian Ocean. So our language is the melting potch of all those languages coming with Shikomori. The architecture of Comoros is very influenced by, as I said in Arabic in Yemen, most particularly in Yemen and in East Africa. And you can see the artisanal culture is based off the Africa side as well. We have 25% of diaspora in Europe and which is contributed PGA of the country, which is up 30%. There is a project with France that we put the Comoros put in place with the Commissioner of Diaspora who brings entrepreneurs on diaspora and invests in Comoros.

Kune magistra proconopic condition.

Between lois

sector.

As a Minister of Ontario, I came out with the new policies to welcome the immigrants and work with the civil society and all stakeholders to have new policies to welcome them and to be able to embrace all the opportunities in the countries. The policies was in place in Comoros was old and wasn't taking consideration all the rights that the immigrants can have when they enter to the country. OEM is a partner that help supporting us for immigration, culture in immigration. And the migration movement. And we are thankful to have AOM supporting us of the different projects in Comoros. We'll need more support to involve local area and rural area to welcome and to help all the immigrants come into the territory. For small countries, the challenges are so many. So they need support too, because they working on surviving themselves. We need support how to help and how to welcome the immigrants and have the security, national security. So the World Pact has to be taken action of those issues and the barriers that small country can have for immigrants.

Thank you.

Comoros is open for discussion and to support with all the stakeholders, all the countries to make immigration an opportunity.

Thank you very much, Excellencies, for your intervention, for letting us know that COMOS was founded on the confluence of culture, language from many, many different parts of the world, from East Africa and from the Middle East. Thank you very much for your intervention. I hope the panelists, especially you remember the first question. Thank you so much. And I understand that the Minister has to leave. He has other obligations. So thank you. Minister. Yeah, who is nice?

Thank you very much. Thank you. To all three panelists, heard them very carefully and thank you for your insights. But my, my kind of question or discussion would be like how do we guarantee that such initiatives, including successful examples like yours, the state sponsored initiatives like once you mentioned, but also any interventions through adopting several laws or having particular initiatives adopted by governments, can end up being sustainable in the long run. I come from Albania, I'm Minister of Interior in Albania. And we've been talking for so long about migration and all these initiatives and different projects. But only now we can witness this whole of government approach when it comes to migration and especially getting the utmost of the benefits of migration, of diaspora and everything. So just to illustrate what I mean is that just a few years ago we're a country of less than 3 million people which counted GDP up to 10 billion. Whereas now Albania's GDP is 27 billion. And with our goal to reaching 35 by end of this decade. And again, like just few years ago, the income per capita was 3000 Euro, whereas now it has almost quadrilooplate like 4 times 11 to 12k per capita. And our goal is to go 15k. Then a few years ago we had only 2 million tourists visiting our countries, but only last year we counted 12 million. And we firmly believe that by end of the decade we will reach 20 million. So why I give these figures just to show that they were not product of any particular intervention, but they reflected pretty much all the progress, all the development of the country in terms of liberties, political developments, initiatives. When four years ago we had summoned the first diaspora summit in Albania, one of the biggest requests that they had was to adopt the right to vote in parliamentary elections. And we did so last summit, which was just a couple of weeks ago, we celebrated the fact that we delivered to our promise. And then in terms of economic development and perspectives, the figures that I mentioned show that yes, not only we do have increasing interest on Albania, including here also in terms of foreign investment. Some years ago it was 300 to 400 million euros per year, whereas now it is 1.6 billion. So all in all, all these developments, which include political, legal, economic, safety related interventions have guaranteed, have made, enabled us to come to this moment in time when we can truly talk about the whole of government, whole of society approach towards migration and to bring about the most benefits of of it, including also like by using, by seeing it as creative force. So again my question would be to any of the panelists, like, how do you see these initiatives running sustainably in the long term? Thank you very much.

Thank you. Very much. Minister, we're running out of time and I think we actually over by one minute. We have. We'll take one last question and I will ask the panelists as you answer these three questions and I have a big question for you. What's next? And one recommendation you can make to the UN on how to better support the implementation of the gcm. One last question.

Thank you. It's not a question just to commend and to support that. Migration is a game changer today. Development of creative industry and the culture and diversity. I'm coming from Tanzania. Representative from Immigration Migration does not just add diversity to arts and culture. It actively reshape what culture is, how it produce and who participate in it. In Tanzania, for example, migration act as a powerful engine of innovation and economic growth across creative industry. Especially in tourism sector. For example, when people move, they carry languages, symbols and tradition in new setting. This mix with local culture and create hybrid culture which affect positive or negative the existing tradition. This can be witnessed in Tanzania where some cultures like Maasai and the Hazabe has been affected by migration who enter the country for the purpose of tourism and for another factor. For example, migration. Migrants are not just participants but rather major contributor to creative economy. The world witness hundreds of thousands of migrants who are workers, entrepreneurs and cultural innovators. This number of migrants has impacted to the economy and cultural diversity changes Government there should include this group in the policy development process. In concluding my remarks, Migration does not just influence culture, it drives culture evolution but also strengthen economic through innovation and entrepreneurship and the outcome depend on policy choices. With the right support, migration can turn culture sector into into engine of inclusion, growth and global relevance. As I said, I think migration is a game changer to creative industry, diversity and culture.

Thank you, thank you very much for your intervention. I'm going to go to you for the first question and then also tell us your big idea, what's next?

The first question, let me remember I know is about. It was about diverse narratives in the industry.

How can the creative industry as I have no.

I think probably the most important step would be just to create opportunity and access to leadership positions in any of these given industries. Because then we have people that have not only had lived experience obviously a different perspective and perspective that a lot of people can connect with that. Obviously I think a lot of audiences are seeking that connection. Right. So I think having these pathways, I don't know initially what type of infrastructure would need to be put in place, but so that these people can have these leadership positions and can not only be a part of the conversation or have visibility, but really shape the conversation. So that would probably be the number one that I would say. And then your other question, what's Next?

Less than 30 seconds.

Less than 30 seconds. What is next? I think just evolving intention into real infrastructure. And I've thought about this a lot. I think whether that's funding, whether it's migrant led venture programs, there's so much that we can do. And I think that it just starts with having this. Not only the intention, but just the action and putting together pathways and programs where we can, we can really follow through. And I think there's such a need for that across not only the creative industry. And I think we can all agree that, you know, it's just, it's not that migration just, you know, it doesn't only influence innovation, but it's also one of our primary sources for innovation. And you know, remembering that I think is key.

Thank you very much, Ambassador Sanchez. I'm going to go to you from the Minister's question about how do you sustain such initiatives.

Minister, thank you for your question, sir. Very important to understand Albanian's reality. As I said in my presentation, it's a change of approach to the situation before you make the loss. The sustainability in the case of Colombia has gone from governments that are not aligned in the same political sphere. But they understood that having a migration situation like what we had with the Venezuelan migrants required a statewide solution and a long term solution. That's why before the law there were decisions made that changed the attitude and it went government to government to the same situation. And now we are in the face of creating that regularization process so we can give migrants a better future and work with them really quickly about the innovative cultures. To be creative, if something is positive, you have to go outside the box. The Minister of Foreign affairs has a program called Colombian no sune. Colombia unites us and we have multipliers in the biggest consulates that we have in the world that reach out to the diaspora and learn from them what cultural capacities they have. And we enhance with programs and with budget that diaspora sponsored by the consulate. So you have to think outside the box. What's next? Next is to tear down the silos.

Yes, thank you. Very good. Stella, very quickly, what's next?

Can I just touch on the question about positive narratives very quickly? Just wanted to say that in my opinion, I think that's the one thing that the creative industry does very well. It's the positive narratives that you see from it really And I think if anything, policies just need to be much more intentional when working with creative industries to say, okay, it's about supporting, you know, it's about supporting and scaling and so forth, but it's also about creating the positive, you know, like narratives. We had an example once, many years ago when I was once a young person, where I worked on a project on second generation diaspora in the uk. And one of the interesting things that came out this is over 20 years ago, was that you had young African diaspora second generation who were saying, we're not Africans, we are Jamaicans, because at the time, the popularity of Jamaica, et cetera, and at the same time you had all these negative, you know, the narratives about Somalia and so forth. And Afrobeats has also changed that now. Right? Next big thing, I would say the visibility of this base is absolutely crucial. And in terms of the UN support for it and working with states and governments around this in terms of migration policies, and perhaps looking also at the city level where a lot of this creativity also takes place, and that's also where you have lots of migrants and diaspora also convening. So perhaps looking to see how we align better the policies between the city level and the national level around this space.

Thank you very much, Stella. Thank you all for your patience for the conversations. We could go on and on, but we went nine minutes, almost 10 minutes over, and this space was generously allocated to us for one hour by the United Nations Partnership Office. But then I also know there are so many other events that you, as the audience, want to attend, but I truly am grateful for your patience and for listening to us. I'm grateful to our panelists for the insightful conversation that we've had and for pushing the creative space forward and bringing migration to the forefront of the conversation. So join me and clapping for our. And thank you, unop, for this space. Okay, thank you.