Third Session of the Intergovernmental Negotiating Committee on the United Nations Framework Convention on International Tax Cooperation

So good morning, now we are starting the session. We are going to continue our discussions from yesterday about the capacity building. Again, maybe to refresh your minds, the capacity building is upcoming topic in the commitments that we need to start drafting to be presented in February as a new text. so in doing this, uh, we were taking the approach of have, asking some questions which can give us more, uh, clarity, uh, on how, on what is the direction that member states would like to go, uh, in the capacity building. This will enable us and enable the work streams maybe to work better in, in, in drafting the, the first draft for this article. especially this article is very important in operationalizing, uh, the, the, the provisions of the convention, uh, to make things work in the real world, not just to be, uh, uh, text on papers, which of course we don't need. Uh, so yesterday we start with the first question, it was about the role and integration of capacity building provision, whether it can be like a standalone, provision, I mean article, uh and it include everything even reference to to the articles of the other commitments or we we still can have this article but also to be complemented uh by uh some clauses in each commitment. Uh and I think we we finished uh the we we no we didn't finish we were left with some request for the floor and we stopped because of the lunch break so uh I'm not sure now if uh I'm opening the floor uh I have the list here but like I prefer because I'm not sure that everyone in the room so if everyone uh would like to take the floor and come on the topic of the rule and integration of the capacity building uh articles you're welcome, just raise your flag. I think also I'm asking secretariat to put the presentation on the screen just to remind everyone with the question. Here it is. So I will hold for a couple of minutes to allow everyone to read the question and remember what we were talking about. We have request for the floor. Okay so distinguished delegate of Switzerland please.

Thank you, Chairman. Good morning. Many thanks for the wrap up of yesterday's discussion. So I think I now recollect what I wanted to say yesterday on that issue. Our approach would be to have a standalone article on capacity building. I think the topic merits to be addressed in an article of its own. because of its importance and as elements there I could imagine to have a commitment on a commitment to provide capacity building for countries in a position to do so. Of course as always with the commitments high level would be preferred and also we could imagine to have a commitment on the the need to coordinate efforts related to that. And besides the standalone article, we also think that references to capacity building in the context of other provisions where this could be important may make sense. So Switzerland is a relatively large and early donor to capacity building programs and we are typically on the providing side and we are not in the best position to guess where there is a need on where such extra reference to capacity building would make sense and we would welcome to learn about other countries' views on that. But I understood so far that there is a particular interest in the area of exchange of information and I believe also that this makes perfectly sense because exchange of information is of course essential for an effective taxation and also we should enable every country to benefit from the progress made in that area in the recent past. So our proposal would be to consider an extra reference to capacity building wherever in the framework convention exchange of information is addressed. So I hope this is useful and I conclude now. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, colleagues. I will speak Russian. We'd like to express our support for having a separate standard on Article 11 regarding capacity building and technical assistance. This is in line with point 12 on the scope of the Framework Convention. In accordance with that terms of reference, we need to have mechanisms to support Member States, especially developing countries, when it comes to capacity development for tax matters. ensuring that they have the necessary capacity to participate effectively in international tax cooperation. In our view, Article 11 should create such a mechanism, UN-based, allowing for analysis of the needs in terms of capacity development and existing capacities in terms of technical assistance. We feel that we shouldn't limit ourselves only to, shouldn't limit ourselves to assistance only within the Convention but also in terms of capacity development and mobilization of domestic resources in a broader sense including work to increase the efficiency of tax administration. Thank you.

Of Denmark.

Thank you, Chair. Since I didn't have.

The possibility to speak yesterday and I forgot to raise my flag, I just want to emphasize that from our perspective, as you said, this is indeed a key commitment.

To make sure that it's not just words on paper, but it's actually something that will happen in real life.

So we do believe it's very important to have this commitment and this article in the framework convention. So that is our general perspective on it. for the drafting question, should it be just a standalone article or a standalone article with references in each article? We believe for simplicity.

Reasons it is better just to have a standalone articles and not also have the references in different.

Articles, so that will be our drafting suggestion.

Thank you.

Thank you. From yesterday's list, I have Brazil, Kenya, Lesotho, if any of you wish to stand or would like to take the floor to comment, please raise your flag. If not, so we can move to the next. And also we have Zaidah also asked for the floor on this topic, on this question. If you don't need the floor, so we will move. Yes, distinguished representative of ETAF.

Thank you, Chair, colleagues, delegates, good morning everyone. Our intervention is quite brief. First and foremost, we strongly support the idea of having capacity building and technical assistance as parts of the commitments under the Framework Convention. As it was explained very well yesterday by African Union Commission and as well as Sierra Leone, capacity building remains critical to our members for a range of aspects, including on international tax and also other emerging areas. And so this broadly is an important aspect that we need to ensure that we include it as a commitment within the framework convention. as to whether it should be a standalone or integrated clauses within various parts of the convention. We support the idea of having it as a standalone article because we will therefore be more comprehensive and articulate the different aspects of capacity building that will be required. to ensure that parties can implement the obligations under the convention and also obligations under the protocols that will be developed. So we favour that approach. As to the broad range of aspects that are important, the list is long but most of it draws from the convention itself and what will be actually developed as part of the protocols, I submit. Thanks.

Thank you. This is the delegate of Kenya.

Thank you, Chair.

We share the view that a comprehensive standalone article on capacity building will remove the need to make separate references to it in the various articles of the framework convention. So we support the view that there could be a comprehensive article. as long as that article has reference to say that it would apply to all the aspects of the framework convention. We also just wanted to note the reference in the terms of reference that it should include provisions regarding institutional mechanisms, which is a reference that we should ensure that this article makes reference to. And looking at what we have on the board, we also wanted to support India's position that we shouldn't make reference to developing countries because we think this is a very important aspect of the framework convention and its implementation and should be applicable across the board. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Mr. Good morning, my colleagues.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for giving me the floor. Regarding to the article 11 about the different approaches for capacity building, I wanted to highlight that our view is that it is good to have a good and comprehensive article about the capacity building which include all aspects of this important issue and it's better to have a comprehensive article rather than to have a mentioned in each article. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, distinguished delegate of Rwanda.

Thank you very much, Chair. I also want to say that we support having a separate and comprehensive article to deal with capacity building. because of its importance and of course in accordance with the provisions of the TORs in paragraph one and twelve. And we also suggest that there should be a clear framework to coordinate this effort, whether it has to lie with the secretariat or any other body that would be identified. But we also think it's important to have a clear scope in this article to reflect sufficiently what the needs of member countries would be and also to make sure that it aligns very well with the convention intended objectives. Of course, the scope would be determined during the discussions under the framework discussions. Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you. Distinguished delegate of Bangladesh.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Article 11, capacity building and technology transfer. Developing countries like Bangladesh, we are trying to build increased capacity to our revenue officers. and this capacity to every sectors that is technical, human and digital capacity. Bangladesh thinks our tax system is extended but cross-border audit capacity is still developing. Access to real time financial data analysis is limited. Digital audit system require investment. We think without capacity provision, the convention is widening, not closing. Global tax capacity, capability will be difficult. So we think we need capacity building and that capacity building will increase the capacity to our revenue administration to protect Tax evasion, tax evit. Thank you.

Thank you. Distinguished delegate of Peru.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We share the view that capacity building deserves its own standalone article, giving us the clarity and coherence that we need while linking capacity building directly to the implementation of obligations across the Convention and Protocol. To facilitate this, however, In our view, a short reference in the preamble will ensure it is understood as a cross-cutting element without opening the door to unintended interpretations. Moreover, we also believe that the article should cover what countries actually need to deliver on these commitments, such as skills, infrastructure, institutional capacity, and technology transfer, including newer elements that are required to keep our systems more coherent and up-to-date. Finally, we also believe that this article should more build upon existing processes rather than reinventing them. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Senkiz and Nives supports the standalone comprehensive capacity building article in the framework convention. We believe that a standalone capacity building provision is essential to rebalancing the system. Without it, inequities that have persisted in earlier fora will simply be replicated under a new institutional banner. This status quo is not the result of ill intent, but this is nevertheless inequitable. It systematically sidelines jurisdictions with the least technical capacity and the smallest delegations. while giving disproportionate weight to countries with large expert teams, well-resourced administrations, and the ability to shape norms at their inception. For a small island developing state, capacity building is the mechanism that allows us to contribute substantively and safeguards legitimacy of this new framework by ensuring that global rules are shaped by all countries, not only by those with the largest technical delegations. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Thank you, Dr. of India.

We support the views expressed by Kenya and other colleagues where in terms of the fact that the capacity building should be treated as a standalone article dedicated to capacity building. The capacity building article as we envisage is can lay out a set of commitments And some of these commitments can be self-supporting and some will cater to the specific needs of the other commitments. Thank you.

Thank you. The distinguished delegate of Algeria.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to align myself with the statement made by the delegations, including Kenya and India, On capacity building, this is a very important issue and that is what ensures effective and efficient international tax cooperation. Capacity levels are different, so we need to bring them to the same level, build capacity, but that capacity building must take into account the different needs of states. It must include institutional capacity, technical and technological capacities. So we are in favor of the proposal made previously. We should have a standalone article addressing all issues related to capacity building with potential links to other articles. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Thank you, Delegate of Paraguay.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. We have a very positive expectation about implementation of this article. I think that will be extremely useful and strengthen the relationships between our countries. replying to the main question, we believe that a simpler version might be helpful, the idea that was referred to here. Maybe having a reference in the preamble could help to guide, but of course we have to see the wording, but we probably, it's not necessary to keep referring it to capacity building in different articles. It depends on the drafting, of course. We also believe that it might be necessary to have a detailed version of the article encompassing training, encompassing probably possibly online platforms. I remember that the CEA, the center for Latin American, Inter-American tax administrations has a similar platform. drafting with legislation support with drafting legislation, it is sometimes particularly helpful. We have had that experience. And what we have seen here is significant. We have seen here a strong request sometimes with infrastructure, IT, softwares and so on, that might be very challenging for some countries. We have had some experiences in Brazil. Designing softwares for the tax administration is always a tough quest. And we also might consider while drafting whether considerations on budget, whether the capacity building should be whether it should be separate of the budget of the UN or it would be integrating the general budget of the UN. I don't have much experience on it. I believe that the Secretariat might help a lot to discuss the different options. I think those are my comments for the moment. Thank you.

Thank you. Distinguished representative of African Union.

Thank you, Chair. We want to quickly make some additional suggestion to the comment we supplied yesterday. Chair, as we, we, we retreat, as we stated yesterday, we retreat that this article should be a standalone article. That will be in accordance with the terms of reference. And it will also help to simplify the instrument. Um, secondly, chair, we, we are also retreating that this article must be reflective of the needs of developing countries as well as countries in special situation. We also state that in trying to design this article, we must have imbued mechanism which may sit with the secretariat under the framework. We must also have commitment relating to transfer of skills, transfer of technology among others. And under the article on financial mechanism, there must be some sort of dedicated fund, which we may elaborate when we get to that fund, as to how to ensure that whatever commitment that is made under this article is implemented and backed with funding. Chair, it is also very important that in designing this article, we reflect what currently exists, the existing practice where you have multiple international, regional, and national organization providing tax capacity, the article must be reflective of this practice by ensuring that there is smooth synergy and collaboration between those different elements. So this looking at the article is what we can come up with now as we look forward to a more detailed text for discussion, but it is an article of interest to African Union and obviously our members. We thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Distinguished representative of ETA.

Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to come back again. Just want to emphasize one more point, which is the relevance and the importance of coordination as part of the commitments and how this capacity building will be implemented. It is important that that takes into account collaboration and coordination particularly with regional and international organizations that are already providing some of the capacity building we are talking about. Thank you, Samit.

Thank you. So I don't see any other hands raised so I think now it's time to move to the second question. So if we can have the next slide. So, the next slide is about the scope of the capacity building. What we have in this slide, actually what we hear from the member states during this week and here in determining what should be the scope to achieve the target that we are all talking about here. So, The components of the capacity buildings can go to technical assistance, which I think most of us are familiar with, technology transfer, training. Of course, it can be all the components. It can be even more components that we hear from some members. But maybe myself also, I will have a question because I hear technology transfer from the floor this week and maybe I would like to ask what is exactly meant by technology transfer, so is it the know-how of how to use the technology, is it providing software and the tools itself, or what exactly we mean here by technology transfer? So again, the question here about what should be the components of capacity building. I will stop here and the floor is opened. Distinguished delegate of Nigeria.

Thank you very much, Chair, and good morning, colleagues. Thanks to the Secretariat for formulating this. Number one, I'm not going to answer the question what technology transfer means. I didn't put that forward. However, I just want to speak first of all generally as a background. When we talk about capacity, most often our minds goes to skills. There's the ability of to to to perform technical things. And if you also look at the list that you have there, you can see that that has a lot that that is replicated in a number of the items listed there. Ah but in truth, There may be skills gap, I mean there's no doubt about that. But it's not as if developing countries, particularly Africa, lack skills. And so when we talk about capacity, it goes beyond technical skills. Most often it has to do with resources. including infrastructure. I mean, if you look at transfer pricing as a subject, for example, we have quite a number of countries who has the skill to do transfer pricing, but do not have access to necessary database for benchmarking or getting comparables. there are still many tax administrations that whose operations are almost entirely done manually and therefore are not able to take advantage of data that is available. Even from exchange of information, quite a number of administration are not able to utilize the data because they do not have the tools to be able to analyze or mine the data, data that is available to them. So I just want to say, Chair, that the issue of capacity building should not be looked at solely from the prism of technical skill, but much more in the area of available resources, available tools that can be used to make the work of tax administration more efficient in developing countries. And to that extent, in my understanding and my view, depending on how large our definition of technical assistance will be, does it include, for example, assisting tax administration with ICT tools, with access to databases and things like that? Thank you.

Thank you. Stansky, Director of Russian Federation.

Thank you so much, sir. I'm going to speak Russian. Now, the provision of technology or technology transfer, in my view, means that every country can choose any of the existing technology which would fit their needs. For example, we have software which allows for the identification of taxpayers. and this would occur within the framework of automatic exchange of information and it would automatically gauge tax threats. Such software can work using existing databases, if these databases are up to it. The software can be operational in all countries. What this means in practice is that the experts who provide technical assistance work and create this software by using existing databases, existing capacities in the individual countries. This of course means that the know-how remains in the country, also within the ownership of the country, because any software will have to be further developed. This must include support and the training of staff, because without this software simply will not operate. And of course, this raises the question regarding the existence of the necessary technical infrastructure. In other words, what we're referring to as what one refers to as hardware servers and so forth. Now, when we discuss technology, we must look at the existing technology in the country to ensure that the state can choose the form of technology which would work. Based on my experience, I would say that when it comes to tax IT, information is easily shared with other countries, it's usually transferred to other countries, but it is always very important to take into account the specificities of the individual states. This is a critical component from the point of view of technology transfer. And I would also note something that wasn't referred here, this is also about technology transfer. Questions arise regarding tax legislation, the existing tax legislation, because if we create a certain form of technology, As a rule, this will require the incorporation of existing amendments to tax law from the point of view of the administration of the system, because it creates a new process for the administration of taxation and this will have to be included in existing domestic legislation. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair, and good morning, colleagues.

When it comes to the scope of this, what could actually could mean capacity building, I think it could be useful to build on aspects as stated in previous documents that are part of, that contained in the base of this committee, such as the resolution 78-230. And there are a few aspects stated in this resolution that could help us to define the scope of capacity building. and there are three aspects that I would like to highlight now. And the first one involves the support to developing countries and countries in need that so they can effectively participate in the full range of international tax cooperation. And also this includes assistance for members to implement the provisions of this very framework convention. Another important aspect could be a system to promote a combination of tax reforms and also institutional capacity building and also building on the technological aspects of the assistance for capacity building. This could be very important to build institutional and human capacity building to countries to explore digitalization as a tool to optimize the efficiency of tax systems So, I think these three aspects could help us guiding the definition of the scope of the capacity building in this framework convention. That will be from my side. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. I was talking about this yesterday, so just to add one other aspect to the more concrete issues that we see right now. I believe, first of all, I mean, that what matters distinguished delegate from Nigeria said earlier, also is really an important aspect. And I mean, you're talking about everything, changing laws and doing this and that. I mean, it's really important that we try to prioritize and try to find out from developing countries what they need. I don't know that. I only know that if I talk to the people who have done that, the Swedish experience can be that this and that is needed. But I think that's crucial and what I actually wanted to add as an element that might be included and I also thought maybe, I wasn't sure if that was what I was hearing from Brazil, is also if you sort of work with or assist in digitalizing the tax administration, it doesn't only help in getting more information. It also facilitates a lot of other stuff that we are talking about, for example, leases, financial flows, because at the moment that you have less people handling stuff, then it would, as I've understood it, because I've been talking to developing countries who have actually done that process, so it will help out with a lot of other staff as well, so that is something I would have hoped that could have been something we could also work with. And I think that in the area of capacity building, if it fits in there, I think it would be sort of a crucial element actually, and it will help out with a lot of other areas as well. I wasn't aware of this illicit financial flows dimension of it, but when I talked to people who have done that, then it's understood that that's held from that aspect as well. So it's really a concrete thing that will help out. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you.

Would you believe that The biggest effect on the tax revenues will be achieved by the enhanced domestic resource mobilization and with the work of the efficient tax administration. So everything we're going to do in this respect will probably produce the most tangible results. However, I don't really understand what the technology transfer would mean in this context. There are systems that are suitable for the use of everyone. For example, if we're talking about the standardized templates and XML schemas for the exchange of information. But in order to enable the domestic resource mobilization, the technology is based on what you have in your domestic legislation and this is a tailored product that is difficult to share with other countries that's not the technical aspect then we also have the intellectual property protection and we as the government again I'm sorry I can only speak for Estonia if we commission the IT systems, we do not acquire usually the rights for distribution or, you know, sub-licensing. Of course, this can be done, but it's very, very expensive and IT systems in general are very expensive and I assume this is also why the technology transfer is mentioned here. But this is something I would like to receive more clarification on that how how should we do this maybe it's too early to talk about it but for our country with a very highly digitalized tax administration to understand this concept here is crucial thank you.

Distinguished representative of WFAC.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Chair. I take the floor on behalf of Western Africa and Central African civil society organization, as well as women's movements around the African Agenda Platform, we welcome the work carried out within this framework and we want to stress a number of essential points regarding the implementation, the effective implementation of the convention. Now, capacity building should not be limited to punctual technical support. We need to build a sustainable, lasting system of knowledge and infrastructure which would meet three main targets, technical capacities, We need to understand who the right beneficiaries are and to ensure that tax data enjoys full transparency. And this will involve the use of IT technology, inter-operational platforms, and sovereignty of African states or the ownership of African states over their tax data. Administrative and governance capacities to guarantee a better management of tax systems, bolstered cooperation between national and local administrations, and a culture of accountability and transparency as part of global governance is necessary. Strategic capacities which would allow for clear identification of the tax base, mastery of existing value chains and cohesive tax strategies which are in keeping with existing development strategies. We also stress the need for digitization as a lever to promote this process. The digital transition should be facilitated, it should be inclusive and adapted to African specificities to bolster the collection of tax data in real time. And finally, we recommend the creation within the framework of the convention of a specific inclusive and lasting fund for capacity building. a fund which would be accessible to developing states, regional institutions, as well as civil society institutions. Such a fund would enable us not only to bridge the existing digital divide, but also to provide for genuine transfer of data and competency and knowledge, which would provide for an equitable and just global system.

Thank you all for the interventions and I think now to take the next step moving to the next slide which is about how we can address the needs for the most vulnerable countries. What can be the best approach in doing this because I think here we have a good combination in this room between countries who are in need for the capacity building while also we have countries who have a very good history in providing the capacity building and supporting other countries. So from this combination I think we can see what is the best way to address this for the most vulnerable countries. So should we establish separate stream for those countries, small islands and the underdeveloped countries or the countries with a high need for this or how it can be addressed, what is the best way that we to address this and also that we can help to address it in the provision itself. So stop here and open the floor.

Thank you, Chair. Just to break the ice, but I don't like doing it, but so just an idea that occurred to me, maybe we could, please discard the idea if it's not good, maybe could establish a subgroup with representatives of those countries that could outline their main needs or main ideas on the question on the screen. From my, from our side, in my experience, probably there are more qualified people in the tax administration in Brazil to reply to that question. But I think what could be done here is establish a limited group and they could prepare a small paper about it. I don't know. of informal nature.

To Brazil, yes, I think that would be good and actually all the questions here we are addressing is a matter of brainstorming but again we're going to circulate this presentation and countries can come on it later in the work streams and even in the plenary when we have the tickets. So we are just opening the doors now for the different aspects of this topic. And we were going to circulate the presentation and we welcome if someone specialized in the area can also provide some insights. All of this will help us to build a good provision. Distinguished delegate of Russian Federation.

Thank you so much, Chair. Now, the issue of human resources is a very complex one. one of the most critical ones at this juncture. And tackling it is something quite complicated, but in practice, resolving issues related to human resources, first and foremost, hinges on creating the appropriate educational and training programs, ones which would accompany the transfer of technology which we referred to earlier. This is very important. Because if we're in the framework of technical assistance, we don't have a subset regarding the creation of the teams which will actually service the processes created within the framework of technical assistance. They probably won't end up being operational. And secondly, I'm going to back what was said by Brazil. The topic of human resources as part of the tax authorities is something which is being discussed quite widely. Right now, we have the BRICS tax forum. We created a separate forum regarding human resources. This is not the only international platform at which these issues are being discussed. They are quite pressing. This is why the issue of the development of human resources is an individual separate topic which should be referred to in the article and it should be developed within the framework of work with human resource within the framework of technical assistance and also by training specialists who would elaborate new approaches, approaches which will have to be very different from one country to the next because the labor market and the socio-economic situation in all of our countries, of course, is very different. And this will have a strong influence on human resources. Our situations are quite multifaceted and different, and this is something that needs to be borne in mind.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair, and good morning. In line with what Placido and Rashi have just said, I guess from developing countries, perhaps what might be longer term solutions to us is to have what they sometimes refer to as centers of excellence and would want to see these centers of excellence being co-sponsored and supported by the UN.

I think in that way, we'll be able to get.

The necessary collaboration that we are looking for while at the same time making sure that this kind of programs of subgroups are sustainable going into the future.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. Capacity building is a core principle of the Framework Convention and we support the way forward that I've heard from most delegates today. There are a couple of points made that I think has made me think and we should highlight. And I think the first one is access to databases and the cost of software. And Perhaps in the capacity building in this sense, we have to think a little bit out-of-the-box and create perhaps centers of knowledge and access to databases for members of a special group or something that others can help to create that sort of database and access to that database. The other thing is, and I think this is something that we always have to take into account, and that is that the countries, the administrations knows best what they need, if they know what's available. So having been part of international cooperation for some years, I've heard sort of capacity builders coming to countries and capacity build what they have done or what is important for them or what works for them. But that has to be, you have to be very careful there because I think, you know, the countries, the administrations themselves probably knows best what they need and not necessarily copy other administrations of what they have done. But in order to be able to do that, and that's the point I want to make, you have to know what's available. You have to create the sort of knowledge center where, you know, we can all go and see, you know, this is how someone has done it and that might work for me. And I think that is not only for the most vulnerable that we have on the slide now, but I think it's actually cross-border for all of us. So it's particularly important for perhaps vulnerable states, but I think it's something that we have to do for all capacity building. Basically, first of all, not heavy-handedly give out capacity, you know, it has to be worked out together with those that needs the capacity. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Sweden.

Thank you again. Thank you for letting me take the floor a third time. But I think this is really close to my heart and in particular and also I think it's really an issue of big priority for my country. So I think this is an extremely important issue and I certainly don't know what the capacity needs of the least developed countries and the small island are. So before I have any idea of how to address it, I need to know what they are. Any way of doing that, maybe I heard some suggestions here from Brazil, for example, and I don't know what is doable, but I think it's really important because I think capacity needs as I've heard from a tax authority who do that, are so different. They have mainly done it, for example, in Asia and in really not very developed countries and also Africa. And I understand that the needs look very, very different. So I think first you have to find out that, of course, so that is the first thing to do. And then, of course, you also have to look at what is already there, so we have to coordinate it. And third, I don't know what we can do, but I would appreciate any language that we will have in this convention saying that this is what should be prioritized. So this is what we will do first. if we do capacity building events. So that would be my suggestion. Thank you.

Thank you. Distinguished delegate of United Kingdom.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you everyone who has already spoken on this. The UK is very active in this space and particularly through His Majesty's Revenue and Customs. I agree with the suggestion from Brazil that more in-depth conversations will be helpful, particularly to bring in those people who have delivered and received various forms of technical assistance, because it's not me who is going and providing technical assistance so there is a limit to how much value I can add. But what I can say is that we agree that capacity building and technical assistance should be focused as much as possible on those jurisdictions that need it most and often those will be small island developing states and least developed countries. And I agree with what I believe Chile was saying, that there's two categories almost of, or forms of capacity building. First, there are those needs that are common across many countries for which broad approaches are going to be successful. And that particularly, I think, comes up when you have new initiatives and new programs that many countries are implementing at the same time. And then you have the very specific needs of individual jurisdictions. And there, like Sweden, I think it's very important to work with those jurisdictions to understand what they need and That is where peer-to-peer support is most effective. It allows for discussion about what support will be most impactful for a jurisdiction. We have those two approaches: a broad-based approach for many jurisdictions with similar needs and very precise support for individual jurisdictions with specific needs. where we deep dive on what is going to be most successful for them. Thank you.

Thank you. Distinguished delegate of Tanzania.

Thank you, Chair. First, Chair, Tanzania shared the view that capacity building should be standalone and comprehensive article. It should cover all dimensions necessary for the effective implementation of the convention and these protocols while helping to bridge capacity gaps among tax administrations. We also emphasize that capacity building must include technological transfer, skills development, data management in the analytical capabilities, all of which are essential for achieving sustainable domestic resource mobilization in an equitable and balanced manner. Furthermore, we support the inclusion of all relevant elements of capacity building and wish to stress that in addition to those already identified, there should be a commitment to make new and emerging tools for efficient tax administration, global public goods accessible to all states parties. We also share the view that there should be a strong commitment to mobilize adequate resources and to ensure effective coordination of capacity building initiatives to realize the objectives of the convention, including the resource needs of the most vulnerable countries. Such cooperation, Chair, will be the key to strengthening international tax collaboration and ensuring fair participation of all countries in the global tax system. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. The floor to the Iconia from civil society. I'm sorry if I pronounced the name wrong. Please.

Thank you very much, Chair.

I do rise to support the views that have been aired by my fellow comrades who've talked before me, specifically Sweden, Lesotho, and also their view on having a center of excellence. And more specifically, I'd want to also join the member of the African Union on what he said about reaching the respective jurisdictions at their points of need. That will be respective to the gaps that they do have in this area of interest that we are on tax. And this will also be sensitive to the S SDGs, sustainable development goals, and that it will ensure that no one is left behind or rather the jurisdictions that are furthest left behind are actually reached first or given priority. And to ensure this, I would talk or propose an evaluation assessment to actually know what exactly or how exactly these persons or these jurisdictions are supposed to be reached in form of capacity building and submissions on their status be known because eventually follow-up can be done and be known to support that at some point they'll have to be graduated from the least developed countries or the countries that have been left behind. And should this happen, it will be in a very good evidence-based manner so as to be able to help them at mostly. That will be my submission. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The Bahamas.

Thank you, thank you Chair, and good morning everyone. The Bahamas just wishes to add our support to Lesotho's point of establishing a center of excellence. I know that during the CID four conference, the issue of CID center of excellence was paramount. And we called for in the outcome document for the establishment of a CID Center of Excellence. And I think if we can look at that and marry what we're trying to do in this.

Process with the CID Center of Excellence.

I think that would really bolster support for CID and by extension possibly LCEs. The Center of Excellence is a great way for us and also data collection and storage.

So I would like to add my support for that.

And also in listening to the discussions, I think when we talk about capacity building, I think capacity building also takes different forms. It can also be primarily focused on human resources. However, another form of capacity building would be support in developing operational procedures and manuals for special smaller units. I think in many of our units, smaller jurisdictions, we lack clear, modern and context appropriate guidance documents. and I think the assistance in drafting and institutionalizing procedures would strengthen consistency especially in vulnerable jurisdictions where we have high staff turnover rates and having clear consistent manuals would also help in building capacity.

In SIDS.

Thank you.

Thank you. At this point I would like also to provide this is my own experience about capacity building. Actually I'm not a government official since the start of my career. I just joined the government like six years ago and part of my responsibilities was to build the tax administration, the tax policy part and tax administration from different aspects. And when I stepped to the government, I found a lot of hands there to support by capacity buildings from different organizations, from different developed countries. And simply, I start using this. But later on, I discovered that the capacity that has been built just disappear. Because simply, when you start here-- in a specific, I'm talking about building up the skills. So because simply when you build the capacity and skills for the people, then they are more qualified and of course the government is the least employer who pay, like I think it's similar everywhere, then simply they move to the private sector, then what has been built just disappeared in a couple of years and you go again in the same cycle and you keep receiving and accepting capacity building, you build the capacity and again it disappears immediately. So here it's a point of the sustainability of the capacity building. The approach that we took later on that we start working on fixing our human resource systems that we have, how we can increase the salaries in different ways, of course we have like the civil law with a threshold, but anyway we start to pass some provisions in the tax laws which allow to have a sort of like different scheme or different system for compensation or bonus that you can provide and it's in the hands of the Minister of Finance and different things and we start to a little bit, we start a little bit to recover from this. So it is a very important question, how it's not to build a capacity but how to maintain it. I think this is the question. Otherwise, we will keep in a cycle endless. Developed countries and donors providing capacity buildings and they do really and it works, but then immediately disappear and they go again in the same cycle and it's endless cycle. So in designing the capacity building, I think we need to have the vision of how to make it sustainable rather than endless need. for the developing countries. So this is my personal experience. Maybe for the technology transfer part, I still-- from my side, what I hear from here, it can be sort of allowing access to databases. This is, of course, makes sense. Because many developing countries also go sometimes because of the economic-- circumstances they go like austerity measures and then they are not able even to pay for to subscribe in databases like for transfer pricing and other things. Uh but when we are talking about the technology transfer from the perspective of software hardware, I'm not sure about this also because first of all it's very expensive to do it and again it's uh it's endless cycle because technology it need from the hardware you need the maintenance you need to upgrade and for the software also it need to be upgraded otherwise later on in few years it will collapse if you didn't do the maintenance and upgrades needed for the software and technology so maybe still I'm not clear about technology transfer from which aspect from database access yes of course it's understandable but building the technology itself My personal point of view, I think this is something that needs to be done by the government itself rather than being received as a sort of capacity. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe other countries have better experience in this and have successful experiments in doing this. So, but just I was just sharing my own experience and thoughts about this. Distinguished representative of the delegation of Brazil.

Thank you, Chair. I was actually wondering for a long time whether I should mention this topic. And somehow this question on the screen allows to touch a bit on it. And I have considered even in previous sessions whether we should have a mention, whether it would work, whether it would be politically sensitive. or maybe in the protocol to have a commitment or in the protocol a reference to states committing to adequate levels for the tax administrations. For instance, in Brazil, we even have that commitment in that obligation in the constitution. Does it help? I don't know, a bit maybe. It's not a guarantee. There's some commitment that they try to send a message that we could have here. But definitely the issue that you referred to is a common one. And even sometimes in OECD developed countries, competitiveness of the salaries, it's a big issue in many countries for the tax administrations. And it changes through all time. Sometimes officials are well paid and they're countries go through difficulties and salaries fluctuate a lot. So my suggestion here would be for us to consider having a reference that maybe countries should follow best practices or should consider best practices or consider committing to adequate levels of resources for the tax administrations. so that they can fulfill adequately the obligations of the Convention, something like that. Once again, it might be, I'm not sure whether it should be explicitly in the Convention or not, we have to consider it. It was just another idea that maybe helps to channel more resources and it is a bit in line with your experience and what I have heard as well in some trainings that I have done in different parts with sharing experience with different tax administrations. And the smaller the country, the more difficult it is to replace, to find people, to find people to replace those officials that leave the tax administration. Thank you.

Thank you. Distinguished representative of South Center.

Thank you, Chair. South Centre supports capacity building as a separate article. Capacity building is important for developing countries and it should be considered the different capabilities and needs of countries and it can include, as already mentioned, technological transfer as well as knowledge transfer. So, for the idea of sustainability mentioned by the chair, we can support peer learning where countries with similar capacities, they can learn from one another from their own experiences. And like has already been mentioned by Lesotho, by Brazil and Chile, centers of excellence and knowledge could be important, especially if they are at the regional level. That could increase sustainability. And then the idea of also having databases, we also support that. Financial commitment is important to support these initiatives. Another important thing to consider is as we discuss the contents of the framework convention, it's important to make it not too complex. So when we are developing the articles, it shouldn't be too complex to make it too difficult for countries to implement. So we should consider the capabilities of our countries. Thank you.

Thank you. Distinguished representative of.

Good morning, thank you very much. Atiya Waris, UN independent expert on foreign debt and international financial obligations. This particular clause on capacity building is quite important and I'm in full agreement with pretty much a lot of what Member States are saying. However, I think it's important that We are not all completely sure what the capacity building is going to be because we haven't finished negotiating the text of the treaty, which means that every member state in the world is going to require some capacity building and some kind of understanding. And this cannot be limited only, of course, to tax administrations. So we have to widen this conversation, which of course is in reference to the chair's mention on sustainability, because you will have to deal also with the loss of staff into other sectors in individual economies as well. But if I focus in on the LDCs and the SIDS specifically, while we are speaking about human resources, I think two of the pressing concerns I have seen in LDCs as well as in SIDS is, of course, the effect of cyclones and climate change, and that will be, of course, really peculiar to islands that are now going underwater, but also are having their infrastructure repeatedly destroyed. And in the case of many of the least developing countries, there are the considerations about war and conflict. And war and conflict may also be affecting SIDS currently because of the current political climate we are in. And all of these are going to add layers to unique challenges. But within the UN system, we also already have in place spaces that have made assessments of countries, and so I would like to encourage the Secretariat to have a look at reports from UNDP, the OHCHR, UNCTAD, the WTO, because all of these will allow you to be able to also assess what many of these countries are going through. And I'm in full agreement on the issue of centres of excellence. I think they already agree, they already exist, but there are also a lot of centres within many academic institutions across the world, and we need to ensure this conversation because one of the main purposes of this treaty is to bring a more equal space into taxation. We should ensure that this is also reflected in the capacity building discussions. On the issue of data, I struggle with talking about existing databases because I think one of the bigger challenges which will come out after we negotiate the treaty is going to be not only capacity building on ratification, enforcement, interpretation and development of commentary on the treaty that we are looking at right now, but also changes in the indices and measures even within databases. And so we need to take it with, I suppose, a bit of a pinch of salt as to how much of a detail you want in the treaty text on that.

I thank you very much for the time.

Thank you, distinguished delegate, Mr. Morocco.

Thank you, Chair. I wanted simply to highlight that what the Chair just presented is extremely important when it comes to capacity building, but even more important, the sustainability of those capacities. We have an expression that we use in our country, originally it was Chinese, but it comes down to teach a man to fish and he'll eat for the rest of his life. What's more important than one-time help is to make greatest use of that help to see how we can solve our problems ourselves. So, we highlight the importance of capacity building and the most important thing is for member states to be able to address this themselves, capacity building, transfer of capacities within these frameworks and within this sector. That's necessary so that we can maximize capacity building. As the colleagues have said here, when it comes to the needs of states, it is difficult to identify the needs of certain countries because we need to listen very closely to the countries in order to identify those needs. But I feel it's important to provide assistance to those states so that they can make use of the necessary technology and this will help us to address gaps in terms of human resources. Thank you for your attention.

I thank you, delegate of Saint Kitts and Nevis.

Thank you, Chair. answer the question on the screen directly from the perspective of a small island developing state, we need externally funded training in best practices and increased technological capacity. It's as simple as that. Therefore, the idea of a specific center of excellence under the framework convention is a sensible one. If it operates as a structured, predictable mechanism for technical capacity across all jurisdictions, Now, such a center would directly address the asymmetries that have shaped international tax cooperation, where states with limited technical resources like ours are expected to meet standards designed with far larger administrations in mind. A center of excellence would offer a standardized, high quality training for tax professionals in areas directly relevant to the convention. IFFs, transfer pricing, information exchange, etc. And by providing a consistent curricula and certification, the center would create a measurable and comparable baseline of capacity across countries. This could include, for example, a benchmark such as producing a defined number of trained specialists, for example, ten certified illicit financial flow analysts for a population of one million, ensuring that each state possesses a demonstrable minimum level of professional expertise. This approach would benefit the entire system. For smaller jurisdictions like ours, it secures the expertise required to carry out obligations and engage as equal partners. For larger jurisdictions, it offers confidence that co-signatories have the competencies needed to manage shared tax responsibilities responsibly and effectively. Therefore, embedding a creature such as a center of excellence within the framework convention could transform capacity building from discretionary as it is right now within the UN system to a more interconnected component of the treaty architecture. and it would make the work that we're doing here definitely more effective. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Thank you. To the distinguished representative of CFS.

Thank you. Parita Shah from the Committee on Fiscal Studies. Under the University of Nairobi, Faculty of Law, Committee on Fiscal Studies has the capacity to do the capacity building. If you go to our website, cfs.uonbi.ac.ke under training and capacity building, you will actually see what we have been doing because the CFS designs tax training and capacity building programs that will lead to fostering the development of a strong tax state. We run tax talks, we offer hybrid certification programs, and we help authorities implement tax legislation on the same issues. Our programs support states on using fiscal transparency and accountability towards the enjoyment of economic and social rights and the achievement of sustainability. So kindly have a look at our website, come back to us because we have been offering capacity building We are doing it as we talk and we will continue doing it. Thank you.

Thank you. The distinguished delegate of Iran.

Thank you, Chair. We believe that addressing the needs of the most vulnerable countries is essential for ensuring the effectiveness and inclusiveness of the convention. In our view, targeted support for these countries should include dedicated and predictable financial resources, long-term human resources development program, and access to shared technological platforms. And about the last topic about capacity building, in addition to technical assistance, technology transfer, and training, The scope of capacity building should also include support for strengthening domestic data and IT infrastructure and assistance in legislative and regulatory drafting and long-term human capital development. Furthermore, access to essential technological tools and sustainable, predictable financing mechanism should be considered integral component of effective capacity building. Thank you.

Thank you. The distinguished representative of BCAS.

Thank you, Chair.

BCAS also gets involved in a lot of technical trainings around international taxation.

And there are also other similar associations of professionals, tax professionals in India who could also be.

Interested in giving trainings?

You know, there's a huge talent sitting out there.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you all. I think it's time now to move to the next question, which is about the secretariat. So the question is not to the secretariat, but it's about the secretariat, what supposed to be the role of the secretariat about the capacity building and technical assistance. So we have different alternatives. So it can be like coordinator, which means like we will be relying on different organizations, different bodies who work in this area. And the secretariat will be responsible for coordination, other thing to be setting the quality and the standards for this as well, or to be a direct provider of the technical assistance. And I think it can be a combination as well. So it can be a part the Secretariat is providing while also depending on others who work very actively in these areas and setting the criteria and doing the coordination. Or maybe members will say we have enough in this and the Secretariat role should be to coordinate. So we have different options on this and different alternatives that can work like separately or together. So again, question for the floor. Looking forward for your reflections on this. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

We see the role of the Secretariat mainly as that of a coordinator, in the sense that the Secretariat could assess the requests by countries, when it comes to capacity development on the one hand and on the other hand it could assess the existing programs and possibilities presented by countries and international organizations. At the same time, much has been said about centers of excellence. It's very important to have a shared view and inventory of the innovations that exist in tax policy and administration, which could be studied by interested parties and that and then they could use that experience. So such a center, as has already been said, could be the foundation for international training programs and linked with that, The second bullet point on standard setting, quality is also very important because in addition to coordination, the supply and demand, there's also a very important task, namely ensuring that these programs do in fact have the necessary quality, are effective, the assessment system could play a role here and the UN could be involved in implementing an assessment system because an assessment system after the conclusion of a capacity development program helps to ensure the sustainability of this and assessing the effectiveness of the program. When it comes to direct provision, that's possible but In practice, I haven't seen an international organization of this type working on that kind of thing. If this task is included, that would require the creation of a fairly substantial additional center with a lot of cross-functionality, with specialists, in tax and IT specialists and that is quite a lot of expense and the role of a coordinator and a standard setter is important and in our view the secretariat should have that role ensuring quality of capacity building programmes. Thank you.

Thank you. Sten, delegate of Sweden.

Thank you, Chair. I think it's a bit early, maybe, to have any really firm views on this. I think it's a difficult issue to answer unless you know what the kind of capacity building and technical assistance that we are going to provide. So I think it's really too early. I guess co-coordinator, yeah, I mean, I guess that could be a role, but it's hard to tell right now, the second and the third bullet point. What I though wanted to mention is that maybe also here we could take some inspiration for the capacity building events that are already taking place within the UN at the UN in relation to the UN expert tax committee. So we already have at DESA doing capacity and I think when it comes to those types of capacity building, I guess that the Secretariat is acting as coordinator but also as a direct provider of assistance in those areas. As for standard setting, I mean maybe indirectly but not in a direct way, but of course if you're doing bullet point one and three then of course you are sort of maybe also acting in a way as a standard setting for quality. So I just wanted to also think that, say that I think it's too early. It's good that we brought up the discussion, but it's early to have any firm use on this, but also to take inspiration from what's doing, what UN DESA already is doing in ways of capacity building. Thanks.

Thank you. And yes, you're right, maybe some aspects countries need to even discuss internally. before you answer, especially when we come to the last question. So, yes, maybe it's early, but it's good to trigger the discussion now, and then the presentation questions will be in the hands of everyone, and even internally you can reflect, but you are at least now ready about the thoughts when we go and discuss in the work streams and in February. Thank you. And distinguished delegate of India.

Thank you, Chair. We believe that the role of UN Secretariat is important as a coordinator as well as a standard setter for quality. These two are key functions that the Secretariat we believe must have. And the actual assistance with respect to the director provider of assistance in the areas needed, we believe that actual assistance and experts have to come from the member states. That's it. That's a limited point at this stage.

Thank you, distinguished delegate from Chile.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, the role of the UN Secretariat under this convention is extremely important, because specifically in capacity building is what are you going to be educated in? We have heard from several organizations here who's already been telling us that they do in capacity, and that's fantastic. But we don't know what are the standards, what are we going to teach, what are the capacities that are going to be taught. And therefore, I think the UN Secretariat has a particularly important role here to play. On the same line that was picked up by Russia and that was picked up by me from Lesotho, my delegates from Lesotho, is this center of what is out there and what is particularly useful for you. That knowledge doesn't exist anywhere. That organization that could be neutral, that could be UN-led, that could be presenting the different possibilities of capacitating your administration, I think that unique role can be played by the UN Secretariat. And I think that would be incredibly important. Thank you.

Thank you. Distinguished delegate of Switzerland.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd briefly just like to echo what.

My distinguished colleague from Chile and my distinguished colleague from Sweden just said the importance of coordination with the UN, what's being done?

On the side of the UN tax committee of experts and the importance in this regard of the UN DESA Secretariat.

Thank you. Distinguished delegate of China.

Thank you, Chair.

I will speak in Chinese.

This is an important agenda. We're also very supportive of related discussions and confirmation of the direction that we're going towards. Towards the question that the Chair raised, I think Secretariat should be playing the role of a coordinator, of course, on certain projects of capacity building, they could also be the direct provider. First of all, they could collect needs and evaluate the urgency of these needs, as the delegate of Brazil proposed. Secondly, they could evaluate the existing platforms, including regional platforms. Are there capacity building project that's already feasible and perhaps secretariat could bridge them and coordinate them to maximize existing available resources. Third, long-term planning. It touched me very much as the chair raised, let's stop the infinite, the circulation infinitively. Let's make it executable, sustainable and after, certain amount of capacity building projects, the recipient will have self capacity and perhaps even become contributors of capacity building so that they can share the growth and development experiences towards with other countries.

These are the three points.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Distinguished representative of African Union.

Thank you, Chair, for giving us the floor. First, I want to clarify that the UN Secretariat referred to under this phrasing is the Secretariat under the Framework Convention as different from the UN Secretary-General's office because the TOR speaks to possibilities of having Secretariat under the Framework Convention and we believe that the function should fall on the Secretariat under the Framework. Now, what could be the role of the Secretariat as institutional mechanism to facilitate and support capacity building for members? We think it should be multifaceted and that it should include coordination, example with respect to all the capacity building effort being carried out by different organs of the UN. We think it could also be collaborative. With respect to capacity building efforts of other international regional and regional organizations, we also think it can be direct provision of capacity for members. In terms of the secretariat empowering itself with the expertise and the resources required to implement capacity building for members, we also think it could be facilitative in terms of the secretariat encouraging and facilitating peer learning amongst member state. So these are our thoughts about this particular language and we hope members reflect on same. We thank you.

Thank you, distinguished delegate Alprazi.

Thank you, Chair. We want to highlight the essential role that the UN can play in this area of capacity building and technical assistance within the framework convention. First, we believe that acting as a coordinator is essential, especially in terms of the need of the countries not to duplicate what already exists but bringing more transparency, coherency and improved access to these existing efforts. In this sense, the UN could help map, organize and connect these initiatives, ensuring that developing countries know what is available and how to benefit from the support. Second, we believe it's an important role that UN can provide in promoting energy synergy among the existing programs. Instead of fragmented or overlapping assistance, we could build complementarities, maybe reduce inefficiencies and maximize the impact of technical support. And third, the UN could also help identify, to identify and disseminate best practices. finally uh we see significant value in enhancing coordination with uh Regional organization such as ca2 uh so uh this is what we think about it thank you chair.

Thank you of Guatemala.

Thank you, Chair.

In spirit of the Latin American effort, I would like to do this intervention in Spanish.

Guatemala definitely recognizes the importance of capacity building and technical assistance. In this regard, the role of the Secretariat is extremely important. But we consider that of the three options presented here, The choice of which one will depend on the needs of each country. So in that sense, we'd like to express our agreement with some of the points raised by some of our colleagues, namely with Chile, as in our region, we have some cross-border similarities. We also have, shall we say, specific characteristics or challenges to each country. Many of us have electronic invoicing, but it doesn't work the same way in every country. So it's also important, as was said earlier by the colleague from Brazil, it's important that delegates from these countries be able to create a smaller group and consider the information. so that we can present the specific needs that we have. And that way we could determine whether the role of the Secretariat should be one of these three things or a combination of all of them. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity.

We want to throw light on the three pillars of the UN Secretariat For CLU, we want to believe that the primary role of the UN Secretary should be as a global coordinator. We are in to establish a central platform to map, align and harmonize capacity building efforts across IMF, World Bank, OECD and others. To also conduct regular needs assessments and match countries, especially SIDs.

And least developed countries with appropriate technical assistance providers.

And also facilitate information sharing among organizations to promote consistent approaches.

Overall, we want to make a.

Policy recommendation that the UN Secretariat serve as a neutral hub that guarantees coherence, fairness, and development relevance in international taxation capacity building while filling critical gaps for the most vulnerable.

I submit.

Thank you. As I don't see any more hands, so I think it's time to move to the next question. And the next question is this time about the COP. and what should be the role of the COP and the role of it to be not just about implementation but also the adequacy and effectiveness of the capacity building. And here's the question because I think we have articles also about the COP and in designing the role of the COP we need to be very specific and especially when it comes to capacity building. So happy to hear your thoughts about this.

Thank you so much, sir. I already referred to the fact that the metrics are an important component of technical assistance programs, but it's a sensitive topic because it, in essence, touches upon a recipient country divulging its indicators. I therefore believe that we could elaborate a preliminary set of indicators of varying degrees of complexity. This could be quantitative, which, for example, express the growth of online cash, increase the number of electronic tax submissions. users of online services and so forth. Let's see, these are simple categories and they're not sensitive. What is more sensitive? The volume of tax income, for example, tax revenue. But these figures are important ones as well. And of course, it would be good to have these available because the direct impact of the implementation of these projects leads to an increase in the funds available to the government through increased tax payment. And this is why we should strive to come up with such metrics. And I believe that every program in itself should be accompanied with a set of metrics. And these are ones that we'll have to discuss at the very outset as we create a technical assistance program. This might be a slightly technical comment, But these are my thoughts on this topic.

Thank you. So I think this will be another question that will be left for the member state to think about. And then we will go to the last question that at least I have, unless someone would like to bring your attention to something else, which I don't expect also too much intervention. This is my expectation, especially when we talk about how should be the funding model for the capacity building. So should be like voluntary, should we look at something more sustainable to ensure that we have sufficient funds so it's more predictable, more ongoing, or we should rely on like just the voluntary contributions that come from time to another. So this is the first question and I think many countries, if not all, will need to consult on this internally, but like But also the second question because usually like maybe we're gonna say voluntary is better so we're not committed to like something so but if you go voluntary then the question will be how you can grant that it will be or what measures that we should put to the grant that it will be demanded driven so the countries with the need for the capacity building are the one who designed this capacity building more than being supply driven so it is assessed by the donors priorities in this which usually what the donors just have their priorities and just that's how the funds usually go. So The first part of the question is about it's voluntary or other type of funding that we can look at which is more sustainable and predictable. But if we are going to say it's voluntary, then the question how we can have measures and grant that it will be driven by the demand, not by the supplier, not by the donors' priorities. The floor is opened. any interventions, I understand this is just first impression from this open discussion. And of course, so it's not like a final position, because I think it's a little bit about funding, so it's a critical question. So we, I'm leaving my name, I'm not taking any notes about it, so anyone can reflect and later on you can come back in the discussions with your country position. The things that are no way.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have some general remarks to start with and maybe some initial remarks on the issue of funding. We see capacity building as an important part of this Convention and there should be a commitment relating to this. Norway has been engaged in this area for a long time and we think that we're quite a good outcome and we appreciate the partnerships that we have built over a long time and that has been beneficial both to our partner countries but also to us. So it's important that the capacity building commitment itself incorporates the issue of demand-driven capacity building, I would entirely agree with all those that have highlighted this point that it should be, capacity building should be tailored to the needs expressed by the countries that request it. And I think perhaps the commitment itself could be high level and pointing to the fact that the commitments, this is a cross-cutting issue and it should be demand driven. Coming to the funding models, there are many different types of cooperation out there already and I think it would be worthwhile looking into those models and see what is good about this model and what may not work that well when we look at these specific questions that you have put to us, both on funding but also on the other aspects on who should be responsible for the capacity building, how it should be institutionalized and so on. But we look forward to looking into this with the committee. just wanted to highlight the importance of this particular commitment. Thank you.

Thank you. I don't see any hands raised in this regards. This give me strong signal that it's time for food and lunch. I know that-- oh, no, we have Saudi Arabia. Please.

Thank you, chair. First, we reiterate our emphasis of the importance of capacity building and we want to generally highlight that to make capacity support generally effective, we believe the Convention should place more emphasis on accessible, less complex tools and simpler implementation readiness. We also see the Secretariat's main role as coordinator ensuring that capacity building efforts across the different providers are aligned, targeted and responsive to countries need. The secretariat could also support quality and coherence, not through perspective standards, but by developing practical guidance and tools. And where there are clear gaps, the secretariat and member states, as mentioned by India, may provide targeted direct assistance but in a way that complements rather than duplicates the work of existing UN capacity building as Sweden highlighted and other institutions further on this specific topic an option could be receipt jurisdictions of capacity building can report on the conference of parties on certain KPIs, on the provision of assistance. On how we decide on the support to be provided, an option can be explored in the use of diagnostics mission to countries, to group to countries, and then a list of capacity building programs can be developed. Such list can also be improved by inputs from the Conference of Parties. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

And kindly allow me to also go back to the topic of the role of the UN Secretariat since we had missed our opportunity to give our comments then. Our view is that the UN Secretariat could have a combined role of coordinating standard setting as well as directly providing the assistance. All these rules are crucial to ensure standardization and especially objectivity in the capacity building programs. On the practical role of providing the assistance, we see this as another opportunity for creating what was being proposed as a center of excellence as proposed by a colleague from Lesotho. with a pool of experts who could assist with this. We are aware of programmes undertaken by the UN where they use actual negotiators and practitioners and I think this has been very effective in combining the theoretic aspect of these programmes with the practical aspects and I think that would be very important. But again, the Secretariat would still need to have a role in this third option to ensure that the standards are observed and also that whatever has been requested for is what is being provided to ensure that the objectivity is maintained. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Okay, so as I don't have any other hands raised and as we didn't take any coffee break, sorry, I'm not generous like the colleagues give coffee breaks, but I will compensate this by finishing a little bit early so I can, we can release everyone for the lunch break. So if there is no any other interventions, I would like to thank you all and the presentation will be circulated for everyone. and looking forward to see you again this afternoon at three o'clock to start with briefing upon the progress in work stream two. Thank you all, looking forward to you in a while. Thank you.