General Assembly: 63rd plenary meeting, 80th session

The 63rd plenary meeting is called to order. I now give the floor to South Africa on a point of order.

Apologies, Chair, but I'm also reading the rules of procedure, and currently I think that we should consider this under rule 85, which is under the section on voting. of the Rules of Procedure. Rule 85 reads as follows: Decisions of the General Assembly on questions other than those provided for in Rule 83, which refers to two-thirds majority, including the determination of additional categories of questions to be decided by two-thirds majority, shall be made by a majority of the members present and voting. So, the rule effectively says that the decisions of the General Assembly shall be made by the majority of the members present and voting. We have a 74 to 74 split. Therefore, there was not a decision made by the members, the majority of the members present and voting. So, therefore, I would argue that the amendment does not carry and that the resolution remains as it is. Thank you, Chair.

I thank the representative of South Africa on a point of order. I now give the floor to the representative of Gabon on a point of order.

Thank you, madam President. I wanted to go back to the vote and say that Gabon wish to express that it votes in favour of the resolution. Thank you.

I would like to thank the representative of Gabon. I would like to recall that Rule 95 provides that if a vote is equally divided on matters other than elections, a second vote shall be taken at a subsequent meeting, which shall be held within 48 hours of the first vote. We will now proceed to this second vote. I now give the floor to Canada on a point of order.

Thank you, madam President, and thank you for answering our colleagues of South Africa. Considering that now you have moved to Rule 95, my delegation does not agree that we proceed immediately with the second vote. Rule 95 provides that it has to take place within 48 hours. We do not believe that we're ready at this point to proceed with the second vote. At this time, we would want to have this second vote at a later time and later date. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Canada. We will pause for a bit of consideration, consultation. I now give the floor to the representative of Gabon.

Thank you, madam President. I just spoke out to discuss my vote. I wanted to say that Gabon's vote is in favour of the amendment that has just been voted on. We vote in favour of that amendment. My vote must be reflected on that amendment? We vote in favour. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Gabon. We have heard the statement by the representative of Canada. Are there any comments? I now give the floor to the representative of South Africa.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and my appreciation for the sentiment of Canada. We would support that we delay the vote on this matter to allow ourselves to consider, especially given the concerns that Gabon has raised, that they're changing their vote after the vote has been concluded. There is a lot of legal questions at play here on a very important matter. We would really recommend that the Secretariat consult legal advice to further make a determination on this, but we would also like to point out that Rule 85 is a reflection of Article 18.3 of the Charter, and so we would also give the consideration that 18.3, we're not sure how this apply this charter. This is the voting rules in the charter that states decisions on questions, including determination or et cetera, shall be made by majority of the members present and voting. So we would suggest that you delay and maybe have a second vote, but there does need to be some legal consultation. Thank you.

I thank the representative of South Africa, and I now give the floor to the representative of Egypt.

Thank you, Madam President. We actually were looking for a smooth operation, but it's the Third Committee reflecting itself in the plenary. So with the vote that has been made clear by our distinguished delegate from Gabon, I believe that the vote is going to be 75 votes in favor, 74 against, and abstain abstentions, and it will be a remiss if we defer. The President has always the right to waive the 48 hours, as has already been mentioned in the room. And we would like to request clarification on the vote of Gabon in this regard. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Egypt, and I now give the floor to the representative of Denmark.

Thank you, President. Just to quickly support the request of Canada to have this vote at a later meeting. Thank you.

I thank Denmark. I now give the floor to the representative of Namibia.

Madam Chair, we take note of your earlier ruling that we proceed immediately after the closing of the previous meeting to the current one. So we were happy to proceed with your ruling that we continue the vote or retake the vote at this stage. We see no need to defer this vote to another day. I thank you.

I thank the representative of Namibia. And I now give the floor to the representative of Jordan.

Madam Chair, I'm taking the floor to echo the support for your ruling to hold another vote now, as there is no need to further prolong and postpone the process. Thank you so much.

I thank the representative of Jordan, and I now give the floor to the representative of Pakistan.

Thank you, Madam President. With regard to the objection raised by a couple of delegations, at the time when the meeting of the General Assembly was adjourned, they should have raised objection before adjourning the meeting. Since the meeting has been adjourned and a new meeting has been convened, their objection to the voting does not stand in that regard. Otherwise, we would have continued in the same meeting. And also, since Gabon has explained its vote, ideally, we do not need to take a re-vote on the amendment itself. Why that is so? Because a number of times in the past, it has happened when delegations vote or make a mistake during the voting process, they can always change their vote by conveying their voting intention in the meeting as well as through eDelegate. So we do not need to even retake a vote. However, we support the position of the president on this, and we will be happy to go ahead if a vote is made on the amendment again. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Pakistan, and I now give the floor to the representative of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

Thank you, madam Chair. Just to fully support a request for delay of the decision, and with thanks to our South African colleague, we think legal consultation is necessary here. So thank you for waiting. We don't think the rules of the procedure can be changed during the procedure. So thank you for delay of this decision.

I thank the representative of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and I now give the floor to the representative of Canada.

Thank you, madam President. I do want to intervene since our colleague from Pakistan mentioned that if we wanted to object, for the suspension of the meeting and the reconvening of another, we should have intervened. I actually tried to intervene at the moment you called the suspension, and then you turned the microphone exactly to object to this point and ask for more time. You then turned the microphone to my colleague from South Africa, and I waited for the response from South Africa, the question of South Africa, to then be given my turn. So in case there is any confusion, I did try to intervene to ask a delay in accordance with Rule 95 within the 48 hours. Thank you. I do also note that a number of delegations have not voted. So, in addition to legal consideration, I do believe that we need to give a chance to those who have not voted because they may not be present, the opportunity to opine. In that context, I do believe since the Assembly is reconvening even this afternoon, and we have a whole lot of work to do, I think it would be fair to continue the rest of our agenda and to reconvene on this question at a later time. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Canada, and I now give the floor to the representative of the United Kingdom.

Thank you, Madam President. Just to echo the comments made by others in the room today, clearly there is disagreement on the way forward and the interpretation of the Rules of Procedure. So from the UK's perspective, we agree it would be wise to delay at this stage and return to the vote at a later stage. Thank you.

Having heard opposition to the motion by Canada to consider L-40 on a later date, I put this matter to a recorded vote. We shall now begin the voting process. Those in favour of the motion submitted by Canada that action on the draft amendment be postponed, please signify. Those against? Abstentions.

The Assembly is now voting on the motion submitted by the representative of Canada that action on the draft amendment be postponed. This vote is not listed in the information note. Those voting yes are voting in support of postponing action on the draft amendment. Those voting no are voting against postponing action on the draft amendment. Will all delegations confirm that their votes are accurately reflected on the screen? Will all delegations kindly confirm that their votes are accurately reflected on the screen? Egypt, do you have a point of order in connection with your vote?

May I speak, Madam President?

Yes, you may.

So, Madam President, my understanding is that the distinguished delegation of Gabon requested a point of order before you adjourned the previous meeting, and that you haven't really started this meeting. So my understanding, and I stand to be corrected, that all the interventions that we have made are not under a formal meeting because we haven't started the next meeting. If that is correct, then we can move to the vote that we are at hand. But there is a confusion in the room, and delegations are not sure what we are voting on. So if further clarity is brought forward, we would be very grateful for that. And also, in the interest of time, we need to move ahead instead of procrastinating. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Egypt. I will now give the floor to the representative of the Secretariat to provide further clarification.

Thank you, Madam President. I wish to recall that after adjourning the 62nd plenary meeting, you immediately convened the 63rd plenary meeting. So we are indeed in formal proceedings at this moment. The Assembly is now voting on the motion submitted by Canada on the amendment. So, we will, with your permission, Madam Chair, if we may continue with the voting.

Point of order.

I now give the floor to the representative of New Zealand on a point of order.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to clarify the basis under which we are considering postponing this meeting. I think, i don't envy your position, having to make these rulings in very, very challenging circumstances under pressure, under a lot of pressure, is no one would envy you. But I do want to clarify precisely what it says in Rule 95 of the Rules of Procedure, given that this is what we are operating. In addition to saying that if a vote is equally divided on matters other than elections, a second vote shall be taken at a subsequent meeting within 48 hours, it also says, and it shall expressly be mentioned in the agenda that a second vote will be taken on the matter in question. So, essentially, for the vote to be taken, it needs to first be mentioned in the agenda of this General Assembly. It seems that this may now be a moot point, depending on the outcome of this vote, but just to be clear, our interpretation of rule 95 of the Rules of Procedure is that it would not be possible for us to move to a vote without this first being included in the agenda. Thank you.

I thank the representative of New Zealand. Since we are in the middle of the vote, we will now finish action on the vote.

Thank you, Madam President. Will all delegations confirm that their votes are accurately reflected on the screen? The voting has been completed. Please lock the machine.

The result of the vote is as follows: in favor, 76; against, 75; abstentions, 2. The motion that action be postponed is adopted. We will now proceed to draft resolution 24. I now give the floor to Egypt on a point of order.

Thank you, Madam President. The understanding is that the plenary has to pass with a two-thirds majority. I'm wondering if that is the case for the motion that was presented by Canada that was just voted on. And again, I stand to be corrected if my reading of the rules is incorrect. Thank you.

I will give the floor to the Secretariat for further clarification.

Thank you, Madam President. Under Rule 95, any votes taken up would be by simple majority. Thank you.

I thank the representative of the Secretariat. Draft resolution 24 is entitled "Torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment." We shall now begin the voting process. I pause to give the floor to the representative of Egypt on a point of order.

Thank you, Madam President. So are we voting now, or is it a point of order? Because it's a point of order on the previous response.

We are voting on draft resolution 24. We're currently voting on draft resolution 24, which is entitled "Torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment." We've moved on, and so we're now voting on draft resolution 24.

I apologize, Madam President. I raised my point of order before we moved to this resolution. So the motion is a procedural motion, so it should have the result as two-thirds majority, my understanding.

I thank the representative of Egypt and for further clarification. I will give the floor to the Secretariat. The Secretariat is consulting.

Thank you, Madam President. Allow me to quote from Rule 85: "Decisions of the General Assembly on questions other than those provided for in Rule 83 including the determination of additional categories of questions to be decided by a two-thirds majority, shall be made by a majority of the members present and voting. Accordingly, the majority required for the vote just taken is a simple majority. Thank you.

I thank the representative of the Secretariat, and I now give the floor to the representative of the United States of America.

Hello, Chair. Thank you so much. We have a point of order on the previous vote. We have been instructed to vote against the delay of the vote. The United States would like that vote recorded in the previous vote. Thank you.

I now give the floor to the representative of South Africa, followed by the representative of New Zealand.

Thank you, Madam President. There's a lot going on right now, so I just got to get my head around it. Okay, so the first thing is, Madam President, you had ruled to convene the meeting in 48 hours and had gavelled and ended the meeting and adjourned the meeting with that ruling. Uh, subsequently, after you had gavelled, you gave opened the next session in which the point of order referring to the previous one I was taken. You had determined that the rule I was pointing out was not the right one. So in that case, I we accepted that your ruling on that. But then after you had explained your ruling, you immediately moved to have an immediate vote, creating the confusion. Now, I would press that the request for a 48 delay was your initial ruling, and we would ask that you retain your initial ruling. All this voting is now moot because you made two separate, is difficult because there were two separate rulings made, and we would ask that you retain your first ruling, which was gavelled upon. And the only reason there was a motion considered was because there was a contradiction between your first and your second ruling. Now, this is a vote of significant consequence, and it's why there's a tie on this. And in truth, there are many considerations, many rules of procedure being discussed here. We would must do ourselves the adequate amount of time to give due consideration to it in such a case, and we would ask that you go with your first ruling. We would also like to point out, we're not sure, we'd also like some clarification on this changing a vote after the voting machine has been closed, because it's not quite clearly delineated in terms of mechanical voting rules in the Rules of Procedure. Now, normally, it has had no consequence previously before, but now this changes. a vote, it changes a simple majority where it's a plus one majority. And so it has significant consequence, and there must be consideration of how the vote occurs to change your vote after the vote when it changes the decision. That also needs to be reflected upon and guidance given on that. We also need to understand what it means when you change your vote after as a meeting has been adjourned, can you change your vote for the previous meeting? Because that is the case of Gabon. They changed their vote after the meeting had adjourned, and now they're asking to change their vote for a previous meeting. So there's a lot going on here. I'm not sure what decisions you have at your favor, but there are certain rulings that need to be made. Thank you, Chair.

I thank the representative of South Africa. We are in the middle of the voting on draft resolution 24. We will now continue to vote on draft resolution 24. Draft resolution 24 is entitled, "Torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment." We shall now begin the voting process on draft resolution 24. Those in favor of the draft resolution, please signify. Those against? Abstentions?

The Assembly is now voting on draft resolution 24, entitled Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Will all delegations confirm that their votes are accurately reflected on the screen? The voting has been completed. Please lock the machine.

The result of the vote is as follows: in favor, 173; against, 3; abstentions, 2. Draft resolution 24 is adopted. I now give the floor to Egypt on a point of order.

Thank you, Madam President. In total respect of your ruling, I didn't object to the continuation of action on the torture resolution. I'm not sure if we, when we took action on the Canadian proposal and motion to defer, was it based on the first intervention or the second intervention that they made? Because I remember that I spoke and I raised the point that we take note of your decision of the 48 hours, and I explicitly mentioned that the President has the prerogative to waive the 48-hour rule. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Egypt, and I now give the floor to the representative of the United States of America.

Thank you, Madam President. I make this point of order on the same topic of the delay in the proceedings. And the United States would like to recommend that we, rather than delaying for 48 hours, we continue with the original intent of concluding this matter today and have instead of a 48-hour delay in the proceedings, instead have a 10-minute delay in the proceedings, which is certainly sufficient time to review the relevant rules of procedure. Thank you.

I thank the representative of the United States of America, and I now give the floor to the representative of Mexico.

Thank you, Chair. We would like to underscore that by parliamentary practice, we have, that has always been guided by this General Assembly, once voting machines are locked, votes cannot be changed. So we want to record that. We wanted to make this point of order previously, but the mic was not working. Also, to remind everyone that a decision was made, we voted on the motion presented by Canada to postpone the voting for the next 48 hours, and that would give us enough time for all delegations to consider this important matter. Thank you.

I thank the representative of Mexico, and I now give the floor to the representative of New Zealand.

Thank you, Chair, and apologies for taking the floor once again. Just to be very clear about, to once again raise the point of order we made previously, to our mind, the outcome of the Canadian motion well welcome is a little moot in that the rules of procedure are very clear on this. on what needs to happen in these circumstances. It sets two conditions for reconsidering and taking a second vote. One is that it has to happen within 48 hours of the first vote, and the second is, and I'm quoting directly here, "It shall be expressly mentioned in the agenda that a second vote will be taken on the matter in question." And until that condition has been satisfied, we cannot move to a second vote. So with respect, our suggestion would be that we do delay the vote. Thank you.

I thank the representative of New Zealand, and I now give the floor to the representative of the Secretariat.

Thank you, Madam President. Just to clarify that the voting record remains as it is. That was reflected on the board. Statements indicating that delegations would have voted otherwise need to be submitted as voting intentions to the plenary. This is the same practice that is done in the committees as well. So the voting will not change, the records will remain as they are, the numbers will remain. The voting intentions that are subsequently submitted to the Secretariat will be reflected in the records of the meeting in the PVs. Thank you, Madam President.

I thank representative of the Secretariat. I now give the floor to the representative of the Islamic Republic of Iran on a point of order.

Thank you very much, Madam President. Our question is that, and our request to you, we need a clarification on the way we are moving forward, because we have not considered the voting 23, but we are going to vote in 24. But both of them are in the report of the Third Committee, which is A/85/45. So we haven't concluded our work on resolution 23, but we have moved to resolution 24. Could you kindly clarify how the method of work is going on? Thank you very much.

I thank the representative of the Islamic Republic of Iran. In view of the late hour, we will continue the consideration of the report of the Third Committee on a date and a time to be announced. The meeting is adjourned.